Newbie question ("tongueing")

MarkusH · Post by **MarkusH** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:45 am

Hi to everyone on this board!

I am playing the whistle for more than 4 months now. In this period this board has been a great help for me.

My question concerns what - I think - is called "tongueing". I mean if you play every note with "tuh"s or "duh"s.
That is exactly what I've done in the past 4 month and works best for me. But then I read that nearly everyone plays not that way, especially in Irish Trad. Music. After taking breath and once the playing is started all notes are divided playing different notes (legato??). If you want to divide two notes at the same level you have to play cuts, taps, and so on. Is this the only way? I mean ornamentations sound great if placed right. But if there are too much in a tune...

Thanks for any help!

Markus

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:59 am

This has been discussed endlessly, but here we go.

Most newbies tounge waaaay too much in my opinion, I did as well. It's the easiest and most naturall way to do it. However, it's not desireable to overdo it in Irish trad. Some tounging can be used, if implemented tastefully and where it does some good. You should really work on the traditional ornamentations. And listen A LOT to the pro traditional players. Get a feel for what is the standard way of doing it. That's the way you want to go if you are serious about trad music and want to develop your own style. You can't do it without having a solid base. Listen.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:32 am

I'm working hard to reduce my use of tonguing. What I'm trying to do now is tongue at the beginning of phrases, and certain places for emphasis, or to stabilize a note when the octave jumps. Within the phrases, particularly when they closely follow a scale, it's best not to tongue. (i.e. play 'legato' as opposed to 'stuccato'). Easier said than done, but that's how you get "the sound".

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:05 am

My question concerns what - I think - is called "tongueing". I mean if you play every note with "tuh"s or "duh"s.
That is exactly what I've done in the past 4 month and works best for me. But then I read that nearly everyone plays not that way, especially in Irish Trad. Music. After taking breath and once the playing is started all notes are divided playing different notes (legato??). If you want to divide two notes at the same level you have to play cuts, taps, and so on. Is this the only way? I mean ornamentations sound great if placed right. But if there are too much in a tune...

The trick is to play legato in the proper places. If you do that you can tongue all you want elsewhere. Separating repeated same-pitch notes by tonguing isn't a problem, with the exception that you should cut a note that lands on the beat.

Generally, don't tongue strong beats, but slide into them.

Henke is right, I think: the only way is to listen.

crookedtune wrote:I'm working hard to reduce my use of tonguing. What I'm trying to do now is tongue at the beginning of phrases, and certain places for emphasis, or to stabilize a note when the octave jumps. Within the phrases, particularly when they closely follow a scale, it's best not to tongue. (i.e. play 'legato' as opposed to 'stuccato'). Easier said than done, but that's how you get "the sound".

YMMV on any of this: It's a terrific exercise to learn to play completely without tonguing: It forces your fingers to be rhythmically precise, and to get ornaments clean. Octave jumps don't sound that good tongued to me, and can be stabilized with taps on the high note (I got that from Brother Steve, and I don't know why it works). It goes like this: A{g}a

Beginning of phrases: I think tonguing there is fine if you mean the upbeat or pickup note, rather than the down beat or first strong beat of the phrase.

.A | {c}BAG.B A.E~E2 | GAB.G {B}A2 ...

Here is how I just played the beginning of the Concert reel. Don't know if that is particularly elegant, but I think it would do. (Periods precede tongued notes, curly brackets enclose grace notes). Notice the tongued first note of the off-beat long roll on E. Mary Bergin does that a lot.

I am not sure that "closelying following the scale" makes a difference for tonguing, at least I haven't thought of it that way.

scheky · Post by **scheky** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:33 am

Keep in mind that there are some players out there that can play an entire tune, tounging every note and still sound traditional and fantastic.

They are the rare exception though. Tongue after you take a breath. Tongue on the first note of the tune. Other than that, tongue when it enhances the flow of the tune, rather than takes from it...this is the golden rule for any ornament.

Marches are an exception, as you can pretty much tongue every note and it still sounds right.

Whitmores75087 · Post by **Whitmores75087** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:39 pm

I used to catch a lot of criticism for tongueing too much. Now I don't tongue at all. I use a glottal stop. I didn't plan on this. In fact I was doing it before I realized what I was doing. It happens in the back of my throat. I realized I was doing it when I played with earplugs in, and could hear a little click in my throat every now and then.
Try to eliminate virtually all tongueing. This brings the mighty little organ under control. Then bring a little back in if you wish.

Black Mage · Post by **Black Mage** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:50 pm

I tounge a note when ever I feel it's necessary. Like when I play Silver Spear, if I use cuts and taps it just sounds weird and uber twiddly. That song, IMO, needs to be tounged.

MarkusH · Post by **MarkusH** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:20 am

Thanks very much. I will try to cease tongueing and start listening to some good music.

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:11 am

Black Mage, the Silver Spear. I'm not sure where in the tune you mean, but I have always played it pretty slurred.

Here's my take on it from whistethis, I tounged a lot more than I would usually in this version, and listening to it now I think it's too much in there, or at least too much in the same place all the time. I would tounge less than this now. Would you tounge more?

http://www.whistlethis.com/index.php?co ... E9PQ%3D%3D

click on the MP3 button.
Hope this link works even if you're not a member.

And btw, I just remembered how many tunes I've missed on whistlethis the last few weeks. Haven't had time to do a lot of whistleing so sort of forgot about that site.

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:42 am

I agree with the minimal and selective tonguing comments.
The only distinctive comment about tonguing that I can make is:-

Don't tongue the whistle mouth hole but "tongue flick" the palate just above your front teeth. In linguistic jargon known as "retroflex flap".
This avoids the tooty effect.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:59 am

I'm finding that extended practicing with NO tonguing helps a lot. Then I can selectively re-add some tonguing and get the effects I'm after. It's a matter of unlearning bad habits and introducing better ones.

Ostekjeks · Post by **Ostekjeks** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 pm

I started with tonguing when learning the whistle the first month or two, and then I cut it all back. I had to relearn the tunes because of the use of the tonguing, so I advise you to starn looking at playing without and trying replace the use with ornaments.

Remember: Tonguing is not prohibited, but you have to use it correctly.

Tia · Post by **Tia** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:29 pm

If your still not sure with the tounging, then practise with it for every note at first, eventually when you get to knwo the tunes well enough and you become more comfortable with the whistle, then you'll naturally stop tounging quite as much, Also listning to music will help with this as well, but make sure that you are tounging the proper way, so using your tonuge against the edge of the whistle, and not your throat.
So I beleive thats all my advice, hope it helps at least a bit

King Friday · Post by **King Friday** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:38 pm

Tongueing helped me out a lot at the beginning and now I'm slowly making the change from tongueing to serious ornamentation.

If you want to hear a perfect example of how tongueing is best used in Irish music check out Mary Bergin. She uses a healthy mix of tongueing and slurring.

ICohen · Post by **ICohen** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:58 pm

Back when I was learning the trombone (about 30 years ago - ooooh, I didn't realise it was that long ago until I just worked it out!) I was taught to tongue behind my top front teeth. I've always done it that way since then, no matter what the instrument. It allows a great deal of control of the rate of attack from staccato to a sort of tongued legato, but I have to admit I've never tried any other way.

Ian