Dangers of PVC

[raindog1970]

You don't need to suggest anything of the sort. All you need do is point out toxicity, and I will guarantee you that someone will get hysterical about it and cancel an order on you. If you've not seen it happen yet, wait for it. It's just a matter of time before someone orders a whistle or flute, and comes back next day and cancels it "because I read on Chiff and Fipple that it's toxic! And then I read this article or that, and it's really dangerous!" Have a look here:
http://www.turnertoys.com/PVC_framepage1.htm all about PHTHALATE TOXICITY
And then try to tell them that it's okay to touch or play the instrument. See how far you get.

The things we work with:
PVC plastic
Acetone/lacquer thinner
Adhesives (cyanoacrylate, epoxies)
Brass (releases zinc fumes)
Nickel (strong allergen for many people, carcinogen)
Copper (weakness, nausea, genetic effects)

And people are remarkably easy to steer with simple fear. It really boils down to the way that things are said. Start the article off with "Whistle makers shouldn't breathe the dust" and nobody gets hysterical. Start it off with "Dangers of PVC" bolded, and you get a whole 'nother set of reactions. You've just been reading one. And yeah, I did take my meds. Sarcasm is not a great way to enter into a dialog. Give me some credit for having some experience with all this stuff. I've probably just been breathing too much chrome moly steel dust.
Bill

Ah, now you're making sense within the context of this thread instead of coming off like a raving madman!
Yes, I've read quite a few heated discussions about the possible dangers of putting some materials in your mouth, and most of those discussions have quickly deginerated into paranoid rants.
Other than antique whistles with lead fipples, there's no whistle that I personally have any fear of putting in my mouth... after a proper washing, of course!
And breathing that chrome-moly steel dust might even have some benificial effects if you're sulfite sensitive like me... molybdenum supplements significantly increase sulfite tolerance!
I'm far more fearful of the stuff they put in many foods and beverages than I am of the potential toxicity of any whistle... and don't even get me started on the modern day snake oil they call medicine, or this whole thread will quickly be moved to the political/controversial forum!

[peeplj]

Well, if you really want to talk toxicity, some of the tonewoods are so dangerous to work that you have to wear a respirator.

And I've yet to hear of anyone having a reaction to a plastic or metal fipple; however, I know many folks who have strong reactions to flutes made of blackwood, other folks react badly to cocus, and rosewood though not as often used for flutes causes some recorder players real problems as well.

--James

P.S. I have to amend this, as I just thought about the whole "poison Oak" thing a couple of years ago where people were getting lip tingles from playing Oak whistles. Evidentally that doesn't happen anymore, as you never seem to see anything posted about that anymore.

[Cynth]

Have you neglected to take some sort of necessary medication today, Bill?
Nobody is suggesting that there are any dangers in playing whistles made from PVC water pipe... it's water pipe, 'nuff said.
And just in case you really don't know any better - machining it, even in a whistlesmith's workshop, qualifies as 'industrial circumstances'.
True enough, it can be done safely if the proper precautions are taken... which is all that's being stated by this thread.

You don't need to suggest anything of the sort. All you need do is point out toxicity, and I will guarantee you that someone will get hysterical about it and cancel an order on you. If you've not seen it happen yet, wait for it. It's just a matter of time before someone orders a whistle or flute, and comes back next day and cancels it "because I read on Chiff and Fipple that it's toxic! And then I read this article or that, and it's really dangerous!" Have a look here:
http://www.turnertoys.com/PVC_framepage1.htm all about PHTHALATE TOXICITY
And then try to tell them that it's okay to touch or play the instrument. See how far you get.

The things we work with:
PVC plastic
Acetone/lacquer thinner
Adhesives (cyanoacrylate, epoxies)
Brass (releases zinc fumes)
Nickel (strong allergen for many people, carcinogen)
Copper (weakness, nausea, genetic effects)

And people are remarkably easy to steer with simple fear. It really boils down to the way that things are said. Start the article off with "Whistle makers shouldn't breathe the dust" and nobody gets hysterical. Start it off with "Dangers of PVC" bolded, and you get a whole 'nother set of reactions. You've just been reading one. And yeah, I did take my meds. Sarcasm is not a great way to enter into a dialog. Give me some credit for having some experience with all this stuff. I've probably just been breathing too much chrome moly steel dust.
Bill

All the same, there are quite a few people on the forums making whistles for themselves out of PVC pipe who could benefit from the warning about breathing PVC dust from sanding or fumes from machining. Quite honestly, I would rather see you lose a couple of sales than see someone sanding away in total ingnorance. Perhaps in the future you yourself could periodically post warnings about PVC dust and fumes that are titled in such a way that your sales are not imperiled.

[billw]

You don't need to suggest anything of the sort. All you need do is point out toxicity, and I will guarantee you that someone will get hysterical about it and cancel an order on you. If you've not seen it happen yet, wait for it. It's just a matter of time before someone orders a whistle or flute, and comes back next day and cancels it "because I read on Chiff and Fipple that it's toxic! And then I read this article or that, and it's really dangerous!" Have a look here:
http://www.turnertoys.com/PVC_framepage1.htm all about PHTHALATE TOXICITY
And then try to tell them that it's okay to touch or play the instrument. See how far you get.

The things we work with:
PVC plastic
Acetone/lacquer thinner
Adhesives (cyanoacrylate, epoxies)
Brass (releases zinc fumes)
Nickel (strong allergen for many people, carcinogen)
Copper (weakness, nausea, genetic effects)

And people are remarkably easy to steer with simple fear. It really boils down to the way that things are said. Start the article off with "Whistle makers shouldn't breathe the dust" and nobody gets hysterical. Start it off with "Dangers of PVC" bolded, and you get a whole 'nother set of reactions. You've just been reading one. And yeah, I did take my meds. Sarcasm is not a great way to enter into a dialog. Give me some credit for having some experience with all this stuff. I've probably just been breathing too much chrome moly steel dust.
Bill

Ah, now you're making sense within the context of this thread instead of coming off like a raving madman!
Yes, I've read quite a few heated discussions about the possible dangers of putting some materials in your mouth, and most of those discussions have quickly deginerated into paranoid rants.
Other than antique whistles with lead fipples, there's no whistle that I personally have any fear of putting in my mouth... after a proper washing, of course!
And breathing that chrome-moly steel dust might even have some benificial effects if you're sulfite sensitive like me... molybdenum supplements significantly increase sulfite tolerance!
I'm far more fearful of the stuff they put in many foods and beverages than I am of the potential toxicity of any whistle... and don't even get me started on the modern day snake oil they call medicine, or this whole thread will quickly be moved to the political/controversial forum!

Emphasis of the sulfite info is mine. I see, Gary. The red wine's gettin' to ye a bit, is it, laddie? I suppose the only thing we can tell folks is to play a Village Smithy and chew the fipple end or use it as a wine muller!
Anyway, it's lur'vly news for ye I have. The only thing I can find about yer Delrin is that ye shouldn't burn it (outgasses formaldehyde) nor should you melt it and drip it onto your skin. Since it melts somewhere up around 400 some degrees F, I suppose that would go without sayin'! However, you can eat it without ill effects, I guess until later.. but you shouldn't breathe the dust nor get it in your eyes. I guess that's another "no-no" for snortin'!

I had a couple aspirin and 4 ginger snaps with milk, and I'm all better now.
Cheers,
Bill

[Mitch]

PVC hmmm yes I have a memory of this from the 70's at a time I was sharing a house with a microbiology PHD. He was studying PVC and its affects on organisms. In lay terms, he expressed his concern for poorly manufactured PVC - that it would have large quantities of free monomers. Free monomers are free radicals - they can insinuate into the DNA and damage it.

His main point was that such poorly manufactured PVC would not be very good as a plastic - quality control would relegate it to scrap. Business ethics, being what they are, would ensure the on-sell of this scrap to third world countries to maximise returns on investment. He had no concerns for developed western counties use of PVC.

In fact, our own bodies manufacture large quantities of free radicals - it is a common by-product of the activity of mitocondria which are present in nearly all animal cells. His main area of study was the function of sexual reproduction in organisms and was intrigued at the way the sexual organs of higher animals are extremely well protected against free radicals - effectively, our sexual organs age much slower than the rest of the body. This ensures the integrity of the DNA being propogated by the species. Presumably, this defence mechanism might be exploited for application to the rest of the organism - i.e. imunity to cancer and aging.

The point being that our bodies are defended against such things - we just have to be careful to not allow high levels to overwhelm our defences.

[Whitmores75087]

We drink water every day from PVC pipes. It's the fumes, smoke and dust, and the manufacturing process, that are the most dangerous. I play one of Guido Gonzato's PVC whistles and I don't worry about it. This warning was to makers, not players.

[Daniel_Bingamon]

feling fine fine fine.

The PVC is not botheringing us aaaat all.

[Dave Parkhurst]

I say stick to lead tubing and know what you're dealing with! Lead is so heavy that it makes very little dust and is nice and soft so it makes a great mouthpiece.....
drooling happilyyyyyyyy.....
Dave