Point of information....Piccolo, fife?

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:25 pm

Hi David!

It seems that Harry's frame of reference is somewhat different from ours. Seeing that both of us are Bronx boys, I'd say that we are the authorities on fifes (and just about everything), but since Harry is in Ireland and this forum is mostly about things Irish, we'll give him his say and not the bum's rush, ok?

Jaybird's day tomorrow! I'll play one for you.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:36 pm

I'm probably just reiterating (and simplifying to the point of being slightly incorrect) what David just wrote, but as far as I can tell, a piccolo is an octave higher than a concert flute, and anything else that's too small for a flute is a fife. There are too many exceptions to the conical/cylindrical rule, and too many people that call one thing by another name (Ralph Sweet's "folk fifes," for eg., which are basically unkeyed piccolos.) A fife in Bb or A is clearly a fife, and a miniature flute up an octave from concert pitch is clearly a piccolo, but, really, the rest are mutts, and what's in a name, anyway?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 9:26 pm

The definitions are certainly much clearer over here, but we do not have people redesigning marching band flutes of fifes or whatever you want to call them - as I said what is generally considered a fife on this sod is largely outmoded here ( I'm sure you will appreciate that there are relatively recent popular negative associations with the instrument, which is a pity, they were probably one of the most common instruments of the 19th century across all political or religious boundries due to parish fife and drum bands etc.).

I'll be looking forward to trying some of the instruments mentioned when I head stateside.

Regards, Harry.

http://www.strayceol.com

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Sat Oct 05, 2002 6:10 am

Well, I feel better knowing I'm not the only one having problems telling the difference

So I think we can agree that they are both smaller, higher pitched flute-like instruments with the main diferences being in usage more than sound and if it has keys it is definately a piccolo but if it is keyless it could be a piccolo or a fife depending upon the maker's working definition probably based on the key that the instrument is made in? Still not a great definition but seems to fit with most of the things listed above by everyone. The only problem I see with it is that since not all the makers use the same standards, specifically between the US and overseas, what is called a piccolo overseas may be seen as a fife in the US or vice versa. Does this sound correct? Very broad but after reading everything everyone posted, I think a very broad definition is the only one that will cover this one. I didn't realize that I was opening a can of worms with this topic

but it has been very educational. Thanks everyone.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Oct 05, 2002 8:11 am

You can read more and have a look at the Irish definition of a fife at-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/troubl ... ange.shtml

It's at the bottom of the page. The fifes pictured are typical of the ones I'm thinking of in native or stained native woods. Although they are generally shaped with a taper on the outside, the inside bore is straight.

ps. Actually there are good (if somewhat short) video/audio clips there as well).

All the best, Harry.

http://www.strayceol.com

[ This Message was edited by: Harry on 2002-10-05 10:15 ]

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Sat Oct 05, 2002 6:54 pm

Wow! Those clips are awesome!

The fifes they're playing sound a lot like the cane fifes played by the Mississippi fife and drum bands of the U.S. south. Sadly, it's an art form that was already nearly extinct when recording technology was invented. There remains only one example of this type of band left alive and performing, and only 2 or 3 recordings of past bands.

Those lambeg drums are a lot like the drums we use in fife and drum corps here. Our own drummerboy is a young master of that type of drum. I've been known to pound the calfskins myself. If I can make this work, here's a picture of a bunch of players getting warmed up for a little jollification:

Note the first guy in line has a lidded tankard of refreshment balanced on top of his drum. That's Mark, one of my oldest friends. We've played together since before we could carry the drums. It's probably lemonade in the tankard

.

edited because I'm inept at these image codes.
_________________
B flat or begone!

[ This Message was edited by: jim_mc on 2002-10-05 20:56 ]

[ This Message was edited by: jim_mc on 2002-10-05 20:57 ]

[ This Message was edited by: jim_mc on 2002-10-05 20:59 ]

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Sat Oct 05, 2002 7:03 pm

Here's one of some fifers. The folks in the brown and tan uniforms are from a group out of New Rochelle, NY called The Posse. The cat whose hat is falling off the back of his head is my pal Bucky. Once he gets going, he'll start dancing, jumping and spinning to his own music. Then when the music stops, he laughs like a maniac. I love playing with the guy!

jan · Post by **jan** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:48 pm

Hi, guys! I was searching to determine the difference between the two instruments. How totally confusing! Why do I ever wonder about such complicated matters.

Found and copied the following info from:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~hammie/Piccolo.htm

The Piccolo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The piccolo is easily confused with with the fife, and in reality the only difference between them is one of pitch. The piccolo is even higher in pitch than the fife and is normally in D, a full octave above the concert flute. The piccolo was used quite widely at one stage in the history of traditional music, in the what has become known as the "Golden Era" of traditional music in America in the 1920s. The piccolo was often used by the early American groups such as 'Dan Sullivan's Shamrock Band', where in the days before amplification it helped to produce the characteristic 'up front' sound.
The piccolo is rarely heard nowadays, but when sessions get noisy, there's nothing like a piccolo to get people to sit up and take notice! I predict a comeback.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This sounds much simpler than your discussion--maybe too simple?

Jan

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:30 pm

jim_mc wrote:
The fifes they're playing sound a lot like the cane fifes played by the Mississippi fife and drum bands of the U.S. south. Sadly, it's an art form that was already nearly extinct when recording technology was invented. There remains only one example of this type of band left alive and performing, and only 2 or 3 recordings of past bands.
.....

Thats an interesting post for me. I have raised this sorta point here before thinking that some of the US members might be interested to discuss this but got no response. I am referring to these "cane fifes". I saw a doco. about blues music and afro americans were playing. these.

Can we talk about this because I have three questions to start ?

doco/length/species

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:19 am

It's fascinating how this topic keeps coming up, but is never resolved. Here's hoping we can get further this time.

The fife is, quite undeniably, a simple cylindrically bored flute, with a pitch somewhere around Bb, used for signalling and organising troops. It goes back to at least Switzerland in the late 14th century; the improvements to military performance were apparently so impressive that Swiss fifers were then employed in vast numbers by the armies of other countries. They weren't called fifes at that time of course, but Schweitzerpfeiffen (Swiss fifes). The bore was the size of a pistol bullet (Don't try this at home!)

Now it seems that, in various countries at different times, the use of the fife was dropped in favour of other means of communication on the battle field (eg the bugle), and flutes (usually conical bore but presumably later Boehm bore) took their place in military ceremonial bands. Flutes could play in tune with other instruments where fifes couldn't. What seems different in the American experience is that the name fife was retained for these incoming flutes. Let's be clear about this - a flute played by a person termed a fifer is still a flute, even if he calls it a fife. When a great tin-whistle player like Mico Russell takes up the flute, it doesn't suddenly become a tin-whistle. 19th century catalogues list Bb flutes and Bb fifes as different items.

Now that might sound like I'm coming down hard on American fifers, but actually, quite the contrary. If we gloss over the fact that, at some time or times, American fifers gave up playing fifes and started playing flutes, we are glossing over really important musical history. Clearly they were reacting to changing circumstances and that's fascinating stuff. We should hear more about it, not permit it to be glossed over.

I certainly don't expect American fifers to start calling themselves fluters, or even calling their flutes flutes. That's their history. But the rest of us are not part of that history. We can call a spade a spade.

Terry

pandscarr · Post by **pandscarr** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:46 am

I certainly don't expect American fifers to start calling themselves fluters, or even calling their flutes flutes. That's their history. But the rest of us are not part of that history. We can call a spade a spade.

hear...hear...!

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:07 am

Much has been said about this topic since 2004...

I must say that from what I have read from copy's of Civil War era catalog listings, the term "fife" was often used to refer to a cheaply made instrument and piccolo and flute referred to more refined instruments.

Terry McGee wrote:The bore was the size of a pistol bullet (Don't try this at home!)

Like this?
http://www.dillonmusic.com/historic_fif ... _fife2.htm

For some interesting reading (with example photos) on fifes,

http://www.dillonmusic.com/historic_fif ... fifes.html

talasiga wrote:Thats an interesting post for me. I have raised this sorta point here before thinking that some of the US members might be interested to discuss this but got no response. I am referring to these "cane fifes". I saw a doco. about blues music and afro americans were playing. these.
It turned me on somewhat because I had been accompanying friends playing "blues" type music with my bansuri in 70's before I was ever aware of the "cane fife" tradition. I saw the doco only a couple of years ago and some of companions said that the fluting on it remided them of me.

Can we talk about this because I have three questions to start (which are not self centred) ?

doco/length/species

I would find that discussion interesting too, unfortunately literature on this hard to find, and I know little about this tradition.

Kevin L. Rietmann · Post by **Kevin L. Rietmann** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:12 am

The most well-known cane fifer was Otha Turner, whose music is heard in the film Gangs of New York. There's a website for him, look it up. A few years ago I received a data CD with MP3s of every country recording ever made by Mississippi - no fifing unfortunately, blues etc. artists would fill up an entire other disc. But a few old records were made I'm told. Otha's CDs are available on Amazon.
My simple rule - fifes (in their 19th/20th century American configuration) are in B/Bb, have cylindrical bores and no keys, and are generally are made out of cocobolo or a similiar stripy rosewood. Usually they have brass ferrules, sometimes you see nickel silver though. I have B keyed flutes by Nach Meyer and Improved, these have conical bores and are made out of blackwood/lignum vitate and cocus, respectively. B/Bb band instruments in the British Isles were generally keyed, no? Cocus?
Cloos made metal fifes too, there's a price list somewhere's out there, he may have blurred these lines a bit more. I'm about to buy a Cloos keyed B or Bb flute and it will be interesting to see what that's like. Cloos or Cloos/Crosby fifes as I describe above are constantly showing up on Ebay. I have a William Hall & Son fife like this - 1st and 2nd octaves are a bit out of tune.

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:42 pm

Terry McGee wrote:.......
They weren't called fifes at that time of course, but Schweitzerpfeiffen (Swiss fifes). The bore was the size of a pistol bullet (Don't try this at home!)
........

That was a good post Terry IMO.
Now the fact that the pfeiffen was qualified as Schweitzer implies that there was a pre-existing pfeiffen before the Schweitzer one came along. Do you have any comments about the pre Swiss fife?

And Kevin L. Reitman thanks very much for the Otha comment. I'll check it out.

Azathoth · Post by **Azathoth** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:12 am

Hi Folks!

Just wanted to point out that the word "Pfeife" is a general term in German and means "pipe, whistle".

Therefore the term "Schweitzerpfeiffen" does not so much mean "swiss fife" as "swiss pipe". Similarly, the German term "Sackpfeife" does not mean "bag fife" but of course "bagpipe".

Meyer, a German encyclopedist writing in 1888 indeed sees the "Schweitzerpfeiffen" as the original *flute*, not just the precursor to the fife -- or at least he uses the name to refer to this ur-flute.

Meyer's entire work is available, wonderfully, in its entirety on the Internet. Here is the relevant page: http://susi.e-technik.uni-ulm.de:8080/M ... s1010.html.

Interestingly, Meyer notes that the transverse flute is "the only flute still played nowadays". So much for late 19th-century German whistle playing :=)

Cheers,

Ed

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Point of information....Piccolo, fife?

piccolo and fife