Dangers of PVC

Whitmores75087 · Post by **Whitmores75087** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:10 am

http://www.healthybuilding.net/pvc/index.html
The above site lists the really really nasty side of PVC. Warning: If you make whistles from PVC take great care not to breathe the dust.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:39 am

Another site with a somewhat contrasting view:

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=987

--James

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:59 am

It sounds like any dangers that may exist are mainly related to toxic byproducts of the manufacture of PVC, and not through exposure to the product itself. One could argue that players of PVC whistles encourage manufacture of the product, but that use would be a speck on the landscape compared to its use in modern plumbing and other industries. Don't breathe the dust? Yes. Avoid PVC on priniciple? Not unless we swear off all plastics.

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:42 am

Of course it's a good idea to avoid inhaling any plastic dust, but it's the fumes produced by machining PVC that are the hardest to avoid.
I stopped working with it because of the fumes... even with the door to my workshop open and a large fan keeping the air circulated, the smell was still intense and I got splitting headaches.

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:31 pm

Breathing any fumes is not good for you. I've been making some wood instruments lately and friend of mine as strongly urged me to be carefull around mahogany.

Example: http://www.vwa.org.au/des_dangwd.htm

I keep a fan running in the shop so that dust doesn't cause too much of a problem. Also wood and PVC when machined or turned really doesn't really cause much of a problem. It sanding that really product the fine dust that can be harmful.

King Friday · Post by **King Friday** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:59 pm

My workshop-in-progress is in my garage so I just keep the door open and wear a mask during the more delicate parts of construction. I used to work in my basement with no mask and then it actually did make me a bit nauseated.

Speaking of PVC building, if anyone has any advice on fipple / mouthpiece construction, please please please send me a PM or let me know somehow. I'm having a heck of a time with it and would be extremely grateful to anyone that could give some good tips. Thanks!

dDave · Post by **dDave** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:50 pm

Howdy,

I would be really careful about heating PVC as well. PVC is nicely pliable when heated, and shapes easily, but it gives off nasty gases and a respirator should be used.

FYI - here is the materials saftey data sheet for PVC plumbing fittings.

http://www.iplex.com.au/technicaldata/M ... EV0505.pdf

Best,

Dave

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:21 am

One of my favourite things about PVC is that it can be worked (sanded, cut, turned on a metal lathe, drilled and milled) wet. No dust, no heat distortion, minimal off-gassing from heat. I use the standard oil emulsion on the lathe, but plain water with a drop of detergent for hand sanding. Automotive sandpaper, used wet, cuts fine until it falls apart.

billw · Post by **billw** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:54 pm

The thing that ticks me off most about discussions such as this is that nobody seems to make the point that virtually every caution about exposure to PVC refers to its use in industrial circumstances. I'm not going to ship you a whistle or a flute with a bag of sanding dust to inhale, or uncured adhesive, nor will I suggest that you expose it to high temperatures and sniff the fumes.

People read stuff like this, where cautions to us makers are taken out of context and applied to everyone, and become fearful that Something Bad Will Happen if they so much as touch a PVC instrument with their fingers or stick one under their noses! What poppycock!

I would call to your attention that baby teething rings tend to be made from PVC with the blessing of the FDA. That the effect of ingestion of the tiny bits that a baby might chew off are considered nonexistent. That the fumes from them are not even discussed as a hazard in the literature.

I consider the entire subject a troll, and apologize for responding to it, but for heaven's sake, what next? An article on molybdenum toxicity to get people scared to play a Village Smithy?

Gawd.

Bill Whedon

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:56 pm

Have you neglected to take some sort of necessary medication today, Bill?
Nobody is suggesting that there are any dangers in playing whistles made from PVC water pipe... it's water pipe, 'nuff said.
And just in case you really don't know any better - machining it, even in a whistlesmith's workshop, qualifies as 'industrial circumstances'.
True enough, it can be done safely if the proper precautions are taken... which is all that's being stated by this thread.

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:13 pm

Kinda puts the kibosh on my new Depleted Uranium Fipples (TM)

Dave Parkhurst · Post by **Dave Parkhurst** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:59 am

So I have to kick my habit of ending the day with a little port wine and a pipeful of PVC dust? Oh maaaaan.....
Dave

dfernandez77 · Post by **dfernandez77** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:33 am

Dave Parkhurst wrote:So I have to kick my habit of ending the day with a little port wine and a pipeful of PVC dust? Oh maaaaan.....
Dave

Skip the port.

Aanvil · Post by **Aanvil** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:57 am

Chiffed wrote:Kinda puts the kibosh on my new Depleted Uranium Fipples (TM)

I think I want one of those for my next camping trip or A-10 sortie.

Bears and tanks beware!

billw · Post by **billw** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:07 am

[quote="raindog1970"]Have you neglected to take some sort of necessary medication today, Bill?
Nobody is suggesting that there are any dangers in playing whistles made from PVC water pipe... it's water pipe, 'nuff said.
And just in case you really don't know any better - machining it, even in a whistlesmith's workshop, qualifies as 'industrial circumstances'.
True enough, it can be done safely if the proper precautions are taken... which is all that's being stated by this thread.[/quote

You don't need to suggest anything of the sort. All you need do is point out toxicity, and I will guarantee you that someone will get hysterical about it and cancel an order on you. If you've not seen it happen yet, wait for it. It's just a matter of time before someone orders a whistle or flute, and comes back next day and cancels it "because I read on Chiff and Fipple that it's toxic! And then I read this article or that, and it's really dangerous!" Have a look here:
http://www.turnertoys.com/PVC_framepage1.htm all about PHTHALATE TOXICITY
And then try to tell them that it's okay to touch or play the instrument. See how far you get.

The things we work with:
PVC plastic
Acetone/lacquer thinner
Adhesives (cyanoacrylate, epoxies)
Brass (releases zinc fumes)
Nickel (strong allergen for many people, carcinogen)
Copper (weakness, nausea, genetic effects)

And people are remarkably easy to steer with simple fear. It really boils down to the way that things are said. Start the article off with "Whistle makers shouldn't breathe the dust" and nobody gets hysterical. Start it off with "Dangers of PVC" bolded, and you get a whole 'nother set of reactions. You've just been reading one. And yeah, I did take my meds. Sarcasm is not a great way to enter into a dialog. Give me some credit for having some experience with all this stuff. I've probably just been breathing too much chrome moly steel dust.

Bill

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