Whats the definition of an Irish Traditional Instrument?

[talasiga]

By the way I would also suggest you spend more time in Ireland because I've been many times to Ennis, for example, and there *is* a lot of politics and groups of musicians, egos involved etc, but you usually have to spend some time and be sensitive to your environment to realize these things.

The alternative (and obvious) explanation for why we have different impressions of Ireland is; when you were in Ennis, you met and played with different musicians than the ones I met and played with.

............

Or, they may have been the same musicians behaving differently
depending on who was around.

[fiddleronvermouth]

By the way I would also suggest you spend more time in Ireland because I've been many times to Ennis, for example, and there *is* a lot of politics and groups of musicians, egos involved etc, but you usually have to spend some time and be sensitive to your environment to realize these things.

The alternative (and obvious) explanation for why we have different impressions of Ireland is; when you were in Ennis, you met and played with different musicians than the ones I met and played with.

............

Or, they may have been the same musicians behaving differently
depending on who was around.

Well, I thought of that myself but I didn't want to add more fuel to the flames. Truly, Ennis is a small town.

[fiddleronvermouth]

... you usually have to spend some time and be sensitive to your environment to realize these things.

By the way, this is the second time you've used this particular silly little backhanded insult on me in under a week, and I have a word of advice for you relating to it:

Don't confuse the sensation of being ignored with the sensation of not having been noticed.


(Sorry, folks, carry on.)

[GaryKelly]

[talasiga]

By the way, this is the second time you've used this particular silly little backhanded insult on me in under a week
.......

Maybe its some sort of harmless incantation. I remember I used to say "please consider" a lot at the end of my posts and the mantra upset people and someone pulled me up on it (I can't quite recall who that was now ).

I mean what could be more harmless than "please consider"? But there you go, musicians are pretty sensitive to excessive repetitions. Some lines are even excessive the second time round.

Often, the tradition will be the arbiter of which repetitions are acceptable and which aren't.

[treeshark]

Just to confuse you all by sticking to the topic what about oboes and their antecedants? They were used for folk and dance music all across Europe, and presumably in Ireland too, so what happened to the trad oboeists?
I would have posted this on the Traditional Oboe Forum but Dale seems to have neglected to create one...

[Cayden]

Early Uilleann pipe chanters are distinctly similar to oboes of the same period.

[Jim McGuire]

Flutes, fiddles, oboes in the chamber orchestras, etc spin off to a lot of places - and traditional Irish music is a big benefactor.

[Bloomfield]

Harmonica or cello, eg, would be kinda borderline. I think.

Humph. A wonderful cellist called Caroline Lavelle came to our session a few times and could play tunes like Carolan's Concerto, and plenty more, peerlessly. So. And I won't say any more about harmonicas at sessions as it's been raised recently in the squeezebox forum, q.v. I'm not going to listen to ITM in a session or elsewhere and judge the suitability of the instruments used. I prefer to judge how well the music is being served.

She played with De Dannan on Ballroom. Loved it, great stuff. Supposedly Frankie Gavin ran into her while she was busking in the street and had to have her for the band, at least that's what I've heard third-hand.

[Nanohedron]

Early Uilleann pipe chanters are distinctly similar to oboes of the same period.

There's an air in O'Neill's 1850, "The Irish Hautboy". Wonder if the pipes weren't referenced in that tune name...

[TheSpoonMan]

Harmonica or cello, eg, would be kinda borderline. I think.

Humph. A wonderful cellist called Caroline Lavelle came to our session a few times and could play tunes like Carolan's Concerto, and plenty more, peerlessly. So. And I won't say any more about harmonicas at sessions as it's been raised recently in the squeezebox forum, q.v. I'm not going to listen to ITM in a session or elsewhere and judge the suitability of the instruments used. I prefer to judge how well the music is being served.

I don't mean to say that that's a bad thing. Heck, I play Celtic music on the harmonica and the cello Harmonica not too well, and my cello playing is downright horrid, but if a player's good, more power to 'em! My girlfriend's getting into Celtic music through the recorder and clarinet. I just mean that it's not "traditional" in the same way that whistles or pipes or fiddle, eg, are. Traditional doesn't necessarily mean suitable. I like wierd instruments used with trad music myself. Style's more important than the tools there in my mind. But I dunno.

[SteveShaw]

Harmonica or cello, eg, would be kinda borderline. I think.

Humph. A wonderful cellist called Caroline Lavelle came to our session a few times and could play tunes like Carolan's Concerto, and plenty more, peerlessly. So. And I won't say any more about harmonicas at sessions as it's been raised recently in the squeezebox forum, q.v. I'm not going to listen to ITM in a session or elsewhere and judge the suitability of the instruments used. I prefer to judge how well the music is being served.

I don't mean to say that that's a bad thing. Heck, I play Celtic music on the harmonica and the cello Harmonica not too well, and my cello playing is downright horrid, but if a player's good, more power to 'em! My girlfriend's getting into Celtic music through the recorder and clarinet. I just mean that it's not "traditional" in the same way that whistles or pipes or fiddle, eg, are. Traditional doesn't necessarily mean suitable. I like wierd instruments used with trad music myself. Style's more important than the tools there in my mind. But I dunno.

We should all remain open-minded. I must confess that I have severe difficulty with any percussion instrument, as the music thrives very well without them, so you have to be damn good to add anything to the music, and good percussionists are like hens' teeth. It all comes down to whether whatever's being played is being played in the service of the music. I've heard a few flutists and pipers who don't serve the music very well!

[Chiffed]

Early Uilleann pipe chanters are distinctly similar to oboes of the same period.

There's an air in O'Neill's 1850, "The Irish Hautboy". Wonder if the pipes weren't referenced in that tune name...

Oboe is a horrid, nasty contraption with about 6000 moving bits, counterbalancing springs, and tempermental reeds. At best, it sounds like a soprano sax or tarogato, and at worst it sounds like a mallard being fed into a meat grinder, feet first. Oh... and playing it can make your eyeballs pop completely out of your head.

Now, a simple shawm/oboe/really-small-duduk could be fun in ITM. Nothing bombardish, mind you.

[King Friday]

But then, I wouldn't consider a tuba or bassoon or harpsichord playing jigs, evne if they were played in a very traditional style, to be a trad instrument. And even if they were awesome. Which they all are.

I play bassoon and often find it entertaining to bust out a little traditional tune here and there, but I would have to disagree and say the bassoon is definitly not awesome. Hahaha, any instrument where your left thumb is responsible for 9 buttons isn't awesome. Yet I still play the bassoon...

Oboe is a horrid, nasty contraption with about 6000 moving bits, counterbalancing springs, and tempermental reeds.

It sounds like a duck...a nice sounding duck. If it has 6,000 moving bits a bassoon has 15,000. Oboe's definitly not a traditional Irish instrument but can still sound really cool. I'll never be able to play uillean pipes, but what can I play that sounds the closest? This may be contraversial, but I'd say an oboe.

[Ptarmigan]

Chiffed

Now, a simple shawm/oboe/really-small-duduk could be fun in ITM. Nothing bombardish, mind you

As I understand it, the 'Pipe' as mentioned in the C11th in Ireland was surely nothing more than a simple Shawm/Bombarde like instrument, it certainly had no bag attached!

So I just wonder, how many centuries of history in a country does an instrument have to have before it can be accepted into that countries tradition? I'll grant you it has not been used in 'Folk' music in Ireland for quite some time, but if we accept instruments like the Bouzouki after only 40 years, then surely if an instrument can trace its lineage back for almost a millenium in a country, it surely has to be given a fair hearing - doesn't it?

I think Derek Bell had it just about right & CCE should now seriously consider introducing a class for Oboe/Shawm/Bombarde next year!

Why don't all Irish players of Bombarde, Oboe & Shawm invade this years All Ireland Fleadh & make a strong case for its acceptance!
I'll arrange the transport!
Now, do we need a Train, a Bus, an estate car or would a little Bubble Car be large enough? ':)'

Anybody with me on this?