Barra MacNeils play generations!!??

one-tin-soldier · Post by **one-tin-soldier** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 1:22 pm

I come fresh to you after seeing the Barra MacNeils in concert last night, and must say I am still in a bit of shock. When their whistle/flute player pulled out his Generation whistles to play! Generations (and a Susato)? But these guys are professional! So if the professional bands use Generations and the like, why do us unprofessional whistlers(speaking soley for myself here)feel the need to spend huge amounts of money on 'big name' whistles? It was a real eye opener I can tell ya! Your thoughts on this?????

Cheryl

By the way, if you ever get the chance to see these guys play, it would be well worth your while - they are fantastic!!

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[ This Message was edited by: one-tin-soldier on 2002-09-08 15:23 ]

[ This Message was edited by: one-tin-soldier on 2002-09-08 15:24 ]

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 2:03 pm

Perhaps because every Generation we ever tried was a miserable piece of junk?

Seriously, though, anyone who has the idea people are spending "huge" amounts on a whistle needs a reality check. I don't think you can find another instrument out there where you can get a high quality instrument for under $100 without some sort of extraordinary luck.

For instance, I just scanned Elderly Instruments new violin page, and they don't have any wooden violins under $1000, and even the super-cheap plastic model costs $135. Looks like even a cheap used wooden fiddle will set you back at least $300.

For that price, you could buy the set of Eb, D, and C Water Weasel bodies (with one head), throw in A and G Water Weasels, and still have change left over.

Or for even more perspective -- that $300 will just barely buy you a bassoon bocal. (That's the little metal piece that connects the bassoon to the reed.) For the price of a good student model bassoon, I'm pretty sure you could buy a wooden Thin Weasel in every single key Glenn makes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is just because someone out there manages to make good music with a $5 instrument does not mean those of us who have spent $80 on an instrument are insane. (Not least because in my experience, you could easily blow $100 buying $5 whistles before you found one that worked well....)

[ This Message was edited by: colomon on 2002-09-08 16:29 ]

one-tin-soldier · Post by **one-tin-soldier** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 7:26 pm

You are totally right colomon. Other instruments are a lot cheaper than the most expensive of whistles - but - do the people that play those other instruments feel the need to have 35-40 of them?

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 10:16 pm

If they were cheap as whistles, they might, though I think your "35-40" is a bit of an exaggeration. In the "how many whistles do you own" thread, the average was much much less than that.

Should we likewise compare the Barra MacNeils with such pros as Joanie Madden (O'Riordan's), Mary Bergin (Sindts), Grey Larsen (Copelands and Abells), Timmy Britton of Chulrua (Copelands), Larry Nugent (Copeland), etc.

Take a peek at this thread:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... 04&forum=1
Generations aren't the only whistles being played by pros out there. In fact, I get the distinct impression that more and more pros are switching to high-end whistles.

On 2002-09-08 21:26, one-tin-soldier wrote:
You are totally right colomon. Other instruments are a lot cheaper than the most expensive of whistles - but - do the people that play those other instruments feel the need to have 35-40 of them?

[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-09-09 00:17 ]

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 10:48 pm

It kills me everytime I see names like Joanie Madden, Larry Nugent, etc, who don't really play "pure" traditionnal music being *the* reference to what types of whistles do the pros play. Most people on this board will use Joanie Madden as their reference, but some people like me are quite more impressed with many other players who sometimes don't even have a CD, and are, from my perspective, much more impressive players. Also, there is more than just sound quality in the "known players"' criterias of selection, sometimes it just doesnt have anything to do with the sound itself.

energy · Post by **energy** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 11:05 pm

On 2002-09-08 21:26, one-tin-soldier wrote:
You are totally right colomon. Other instruments are a lot cheaper than the most expensive of whistles - but - do the people that play those other instruments feel the need to have 35-40 of them?

Um, do you mean other instruments are a lot more expensive than the most expensive of whistles?

energy · Post by **energy** » Sun Sep 08, 2002 11:06 pm

On 2002-09-09 00:48, Azalin wrote:
It kills me everytime I see names like Joanie Madden, Larry Nugent, etc, who don't really play "pure" traditionnal music being *the* reference to what types of whistles do the pros play. Most people on this board will use Joanie Madden as their reference, but some people like me are quite more impressed with many other players who sometimes don't even have a CD, and are, from my perspective, much more impressive players. Also, there is more than just sound quality in the "known players"' criterias of selection, sometimes it just doesnt have anything to do with the sound itself.

How do you define 'pure' traditional music?

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[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-09-09 01:07 ]

Wandering_Whistler · Post by **Wandering_Whistler** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 5:35 am

So then, does one has to fit your definition of "pure drop" before they can be a good musician or make good music then, Az?

On 2002-09-09 00:48, Azalin wrote:
It kills me everytime I see names like Joanie Madden, Larry Nugent, etc, who don't really play "pure" traditionnal music being *the* reference to what types of whistles do the pros play.

one-tin-soldier · Post by **one-tin-soldier** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 6:47 am

I did not ask this question to get peoples 'knickers in a knot', I was mostly curious as I have many (35 or so) whistles and several of them are what I consider expensive. I was mainly questioning my own judgement on spending so much money I guess.

It looks to me like 'most' traditional players prefer generations keeping with the theme that 'penny' whisltes were just that, cheap - therefore keeping more with the tradition of the music. Where others are more adventurous and willing experiment with what else is out there in the whislte world.

I know when they are recording they can do all kinds of things to the sound of the whisltes to improve on them, but what about playing live? Is it possible that the ones playing generations have done something with the sound coming from the mic to improve on it? Also I wonder if they play them as is, right from the store or are they tweeked in some way. I have tried tweeking mine according to the C&F guidelines, but did not find the sound much different.

Cheryl

Thanks for sharing in my contemplations!

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:00 am

I agree completely with Az.
Unfortunately, asking for the definition of pure trad is like asking for the definition of the blues. If you don't understand it then asking isn't going to help.
Chris

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-09-09 09:04 ]

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:03 am

Wandering,

What I meant is that the "pros" you've listed are only a very small part of the hundreds of pros out there, all of them at least as good as many of the people you've named. They're all very good musicians, but I'm personnaly more impressed with some "unknown" players, and what whistle they play will have much more influence on me. I just wanted to point out that the whistle world is much more bigger than what some people think, and doesnt stop with Bergin, Madden, etc. What actually triggered my post is when you said "Should we likewise compare the Barra MacNeils with such pros as Joanie Madden (O'Riordan's), Mary Bergin (Sindts)"... I personally don't like this sentence, because for me these other hundreds of players are in the SAME ball park as your "pros" when it comes to trad. music and the way I'd like to play. I just wanted to give my point of view, I'm not saying this is the truth of life...

Jens_Hoppe · Post by **Jens_Hoppe** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:04 am

Obviously, a player is only "traditional" as long as he hasn't released any CDs, and does all his playing in his own kitchen. Once he stupidly ventures out of the hosue or records a tune, the damage is done and he gets a "I play Celtic music, just like Michael Flatley" stamp on his forehead.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:09 am

Oh, yeah, thanks Chris, about the definition of trad. music, I really don't know, but after spending lotsa of time listening to music in sessions in Ireland, I just know that I want to play in a certain way, which I would define as pure traditionnal... But if for others irish music is Joanie Madden and Dave Spillane, well then I don't see any problem to it!

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:15 am

Jens,

You can try to talk for others if you want, but what you said doesnt apply to me. Christy Barry has a CD and I still think he plays pure tradionnal, and I could name you many others. But anyway, I knew it was going to come to that, like everytime someone says something seen as "bad" about Madden and others... My goal was just trying to inform people who dont know much about irish music that no, Madden does not represent irish music in my view... Sorry if it offended people.

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:25 am

I might also add that the list of musicians Wandering Whistler provides is based almost completely in the US, with the exception of Mary Bergin, who spends a lot of time here anyways. There are literally thousands of other brilliant whistle players in Ireland and the rest of the world (Boston included) who play Generations almost exclusively.
Also, the largest trend I've seen in whistle demographics has been a shift by the top notch players from just using Generations to playing John Sindt's whistles as well, which are the closest thing to finding a perfect Generation without actually finding one. Basically top notch whistle players are just buying really good Generations in the form of John's whistles.

Kevin Crawford, who plays mostly flute and low whistles (Grinter, Overton, Chieftan) on his CDs discussed whistles with a bunch of us during a class - in attendance were almost all of the top-cost brands. Kevin reached over the person sitting next to him and took his Sindt D, played it brilliantly with a big smile, gave it back and said "Now these are the best whistles in the world".

I think people are missing Az's main point, that being that while Joannie Madden, Laurence Nugent, etc are superb players, a trip to the Fleadh or Willy Week, or even a couple weeks hanging out in the pubs of Galway, Ennis or Boston will reveal plenty of players who are just as good and play good old $4 Generation D whistles.
The group of American players WanderingWhistler mentions gained such recognition in the US partly because of their talent but also because they are among the very few whistle players who are distributed in the US. Idolizing them as the primary whistle Gods is ignoring the vast majority of whistle players in Ireland and elsewhere who play brilliant music but haven't been recorded or just haven't been distributed in the US.

Now I love most of the expensive whistles - I have several blow-your-mind good low pitched Overtons and a complete set of sweet as can be Sindts, so don't think that I don't love the more expensive whistles - I'm just saying that my tendencies towards expensive whistles, and the tendencies of the rest of this crazy board, are in no way reflective of the tendencies of the rest of the world. We (myself included) are a relatively small, raggle-taggle band of mostly only half-decent whistle wannabies with big collections of $150 whistles. We do not represent the whistle world. We represent the Chiff and Fipple messageboards.
Best,
Chris

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[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-09-09 09:32 ]