Ornamental Troubles

scheky · Post by **scheky** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:28 pm

Ok, this isn't about having trouble PLAYING ornaments, but rather getting them in the right place so the music feels RIGHT.

Assuming that we all know the standard rules for ornamenting, there's always that ONE song or part of a song that simply eludes us as to what can be added to great effect.

For me, it's actually a simple one. Ballydesomnd #2. Specifically the A part (the B part has some lovely spots almost screaming for ornaments). It's just that stinkin A part. Aside from the double A (which is a good spot to grab a breath if needed or drop a tap/cut if not) every ornament I really try until the lower register G note just feels, well...forced.

Now, I'm a very vocal admirer of the "less if often better" school. That said, I also know I'm missing some opportunities to change up how that part sounds that I just can't think of.

So, with that diatribe aside, what's your personal Bugbear? Perhaps we as a group can recommend differing ways to play old favorites (that are still deeply tradtional) that give us no end of difficulty.

I can't be the only one. Ive even heard some not-so sweet accents on recorded works that just didn't quite sound right.

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:39 pm

Which Ballydesmond polka do you mean? Unfortunately, there are multiple "numbering systems", and (for instance) the one I think of as #2 is not the one my wife thinks of as #2.

scheky · Post by **scheky** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:25 pm

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:32 am

Put aside that abc version of the tune and listen to other versions or other printed versions. There are loads of variations possible and you may be locking yourself into how this one is written. Besides ornamentation, you'll hear different combinations of notes through a phrase that lend themselves to other embellishments.
Tony

Ro3b · Post by **Ro3b** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:41 am

Listen to fiddlers and do what they do. IMHO polkas go best if you don't mess around with them too much. They take almost no finger ornamentation. On the flute I'll generally push the backbeats, viz: ha-TA ha-TA ha-TA ha-TA, but that's about it. Just get a good groove going, that's all you need.

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:45 am

Ro3b wrote:IMHO polkas go best if you don't mess around with them too much. They take almost no finger ornamentation.

I agree, I use very little ornamentation in either of the Ballydesmonds.

scheky · Post by **scheky** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:11 pm

That's probably why it sounds so forced.

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:17 pm

scheky wrote:That's probably why it sounds so forced.

Yeah. That second A needs an accent, so a finger ornament would
take away from the polka rhythm, I think.

Bretton · Post by **Bretton** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:28 pm

I do roll the G in the A part, but it's a different sort of roll than what I play in any other tune...more like a dotted eighth note and two sixteenth notes. Normally I play my rolls very even. It seems to work for me, but I'm not an expert on polkas.

I usually cut the two E's but I don't think I do with the A's. I do play some triplets as well.

I'll record a version of my playing later after the kids are asleep and post it. I'd be interested in some feedback on it anyway.

-Brett

tune: http://www.bloomington.in.us/~brett/bally_desmond_2.mp3

I had to go outside so you may hear crickets and cars driving by...

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:46 pm

Took a shot at the tune just for example (good or bad, you decide). When someone says, "I roll the second a or cut the third b," I think, "don't tell me, show me." My brain's too lazy to work out the details from reading about them. (Edit: Hey, Brett, you posted while I was doing my one.)
<a href="http://www.tinwhistletunes.com/clipssni ... llydesmond Polka #2

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:21 pm

scheky wrote:Ok, this isn't about having trouble PLAYING ornaments, but rather getting them in the right place so the music feels RIGHT.
.......

sweetie, if its not in the right place it is not an ornament.
whoever heard of a necklace ornamenting an ear?

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:07 am

Bretton wrote:I do roll the G in the A part, but it's a different sort of roll than what I play in any other tune...more like a dotted eighth note and two sixteenth notes. Normally I play my rolls very even. It seems to work for me, but I'm not an expert on polkas.

Yeah, I do something like that too -- basically capturing the G>F G thing that's there in the ABCs, but doing it as G>G G using a roll.

I've no idea if that's even vaguely traditional, but it feels right.

That does remind me I need to sit down and listen carefully to the Denis Murphy / Julia Clifford recording of the Ballydesmonds....

Blaydo · Post by **Blaydo** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:05 am

Heres another version of it you might get something from:
http://www.esatclear.ie/~lorenzo/Variou ... olka_1.MP3

It's from an Irish tune book cd and is listed there as 1 not 2.

riverman · Post by **riverman** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:37 pm

If we're talking about the Ballydesomod Polka, I love it. I usually slide up into that G, and cut the second of the double As. I'm not advanced enough to change my ornamentation for each measure--that's future for me. But I vary the timing.
Grey Larsen's "Tin Whistle Toolbox" tutorial has songs with ornamentation symbols added. and his "The Toolbox Tune Collection" has 18 songs with ornamentation added, and CDs. These help me a lot.

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