Sunrise Solstice at Stoneheng

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:15 am

There's a stone circle up on a hill at the top of the valley about three quarter of a mile from my house. Some of the stones have disappeared by now but a few are still standing. You can still see a remainder of the circle and it clear why the location, looking down the valley towards the Ocean and the island in the bay, was chosen in the first place.
I remember walking up there years ago with my son who was four or five at the time. He looked atone of the stones and asked 'why did they put a stone up here that looks like Bart Simpson?'.

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:20 am

Brilliant! The Ancients were wise indeed!

amar · Post by **amar** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:57 am

wonder if billy enjoyed himself there again..

alurker · Post by **alurker** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:31 pm

GaryKelly wrote: You do the maths, alurker. The obliquity of earth's ecliptic is changing. 5000 years ago the sun's azimuth angle during the solstice was at least two complete solar diameters north of where it is today. Same for the moon. Illumination angles don't remain static over time. The latitude of any structure, which is also critical to setting up 'an ancient observatory' is also changing over time too.

Some more maths Gary: The illumination of the burial chamber lasts for up to 17 minutes at solstice. This means that the effective (vertical) angle captured by the light box and passageway is about 4.25 Deg (360*17 / 24*60). A lateral shift of 2 sun diameters (<1 Deg) over 5000 years does have an adverse effect on the phenomenon but it is not significant given the fact that the light box and the passageway is roughly square. The illumination was probably of longer duration and was evident on more days around the winter solstice 5200 years ago. What is significant is that with a square light box/passageway with a 4.5 Deg included angle on both the vertical and horizontal axes, there is roughly a 1 in 1794 ((180/4.5)SQUARED) chance of the chamber being illuminated at sunrise at winter solstice. I believe this illumination phenomenon is by design.

GaryKelly wrote:As for Walden's original question, why do so many people seem so anxious to endow 'the ancients' with 'impossible' knowledge that has, obviously, been lost, leaving nothing but tantalizing "clues" as to their existence?

No, Walden's original question was "What's this obsssion people have with ancient monuments and the summer solstice?" I don't believe that aligning a lightbox opening and passageway with the rising sun as solstice constitutes "impossible knowledge". BTW have you seen this thing? Here are some images. Not a bad engineering feat for a 5200 year old building. My question is: why do so many people seem so anxious to discredit the ancients?
<img src="http://www.knowth.com/wallpaper/newgran ... al-800.jpg" width="600" height="450"></img>
<img src="http://www.knowth.com/images-ng/ng-ent1-700.jpg" width="600" height="366"></img>

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:22 pm

alurker wrote:My question is: why do so many people seem so anxious to discredit the ancients?

No-one is discrediting the ancients. What is being decried is the nonsense that gets added on.

Some have looked at the architecture you illustrate and have claimed what great architects and masons the ancients were. Others again have seen the same and claimed the ancients couldn't possibly have done all that without the help of aliens. Others still have seen this, brushed over the significance of the building itself, and started describing the uses of the buildings, the ceremonies attached, etc. - all stuff they couldn't possibly know as true, and none of it based on fact.

This is the stuff that is being discredited.

djm

SteveShaw · Post by **SteveShaw** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:30 pm

We should all go and get some good books about this stuff. It's much more fun to read them than it is batting around in the dark with a ton of half-knowledge. Or have I just summed up the internet?

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:33 pm

Steve, you're no fun any more.

djm

SteveShaw · Post by **SteveShaw** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:56 pm

djm wrote:Steve, you're no fun any more.

djm

Au contraire. What's more fun, reading a good book written by a knowledgeable and erudite expert in the field, or reading a bunch of tiresome half-digested stuff from people whose only expertise is in pontificating?

Post by **Nanohedron** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:04 pm

SteveShaw wrote:
djm wrote:Steve, you're no fun any more.

djm
Au contraire. What's more fun, reading a good book written by a knowledgeable and erudite expert in the field, or reading a bunch of tiresome half-digested stuff from people whose only expertise is in pontificating?

Eh? You can't slag an author when you're reading his/her work. Not to the same satisfaction you get on the 'net, anyway.

alurker · Post by **alurker** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:17 pm

djm wrote: No-one is discrediting the ancients.

Walden wrote: What's this obsssion people have with ancient monuments and the summer solstice?.

GaryKelly wrote: You can take any fixed structure on the earth and ascribe any number of 'astronomical alignments' to it.

Given the extremely low likelyhood that the winter solstice illumination phenomenon is by coincidence, I believe that those who designed and built Newgrange deserve great credit. They deserve it for incorporating this solstice illumination design and for the engineering and masonry feat of the overall construction, especially given the tools and technology available 5000 years ago. To deny them this is to discredit them and their achievements. I don't recall anyone here making claims describing the uses of the buildings and the ceremonies attached (or alien assistance for that matter).

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:17 pm

Steve, you're assuming that no-one here has read anything about it. That would be your error. But really, this is not an academic forum. Its a pub, and gassing and slagging is what its all about.

djm

Lambchop · Post by **Lambchop** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:27 pm

I'm not sure why this is such an issue. It's perfectly clear to me what this is all about.

Winter is a long time and it's pretty darned dark up in those parts. They aligned that thing just that way so that a couple days a year they could get in there to clean, and still be able to see while they did it.

alurker · Post by **alurker** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:34 pm

Lambchop wrote:I'm not sure why this is such an issue. It's perfectly clear to me what this is all about.

Winter is a long time and it's pretty darned dark up in those parts. They aligned that thing just that way so that a couple days a year they could get in there to clean, and still be able to see while they did it.

Good theory Lambchop, but wouldn't you think that they would have aligned it with 10am on March 1st to facilitate Spring-cleaning??

djm · Post by **djm** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:36 pm

Lambchop wrote:They aligned that thing just that way so that a couple days a year they could get in there to clean, and still be able to see while they did it.

At last, the voice of reason.!

djm

Lambchop · Post by **Lambchop** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:07 pm

alurker wrote:
Lambchop wrote:I'm not sure why this is such an issue. It's perfectly clear to me what this is all about.

Winter is a long time and it's pretty darned dark up in those parts. They aligned that thing just that way so that a couple days a year they could get in there to clean, and still be able to see while they did it.

Good theory Lambchop, but wouldn't you think that they would have aligned it with 10am on March 1st to facilitate Spring-cleaning??

No. There's already enough light in March.

That's why it's spring, remember?