How many keys should I get on a Concert flute?

[jim stone]

I would like to buy a keyed flute.

As I am only really interested in playing Irish music, I have a question:

How many keys should I get on the flute ? Sam Murray said all I need are three keys.

I have seen ITM artists with eight.

Advice and tips appreciated.

The question was how many keys you should get,
not how many you need. Let me respond to the
first question.

IMHO, FWIW.....six keys are a good idea for ITM.
By the way, the C natural key is very useful,
I find--it often simplifies fingering. If you have
the money, I don't think you will regret getting six
keys.

[Jumbuk]

I would like to buy a keyed flute.

As I am only really interested in playing Irish music, I have a question:

How many keys should I get on the flute ? Sam Murray said all I need are three keys.

I have seen ITM artists with eight.

Advice and tips appreciated.

Flauta, how is your playing progressing? Some time ago, I remember you posting with some questions about low notes, embouchure etc. Is it getting easier? I ask because I am at a similar stage, can play a few tunes, better sound, still struggling getting reels up to speed.

The more experienced posters have pretty much answered your questions. As someone with a keyed flute as well as a keyless, and still in the beginner stage, you might like to hear my perspective.

I have a Sweet 6-key blackwood that I picked up through this forum. I find it a little easier (and sweeter) to play the upper octave than my Casey Burns folk flute, so that was a nice bonus. However, it is significantly heavier, which does make a difference when you play for a long period.

I got it partly because I also play Australian trad music, with box players that like C or even F. I also play with singers occasionally. One thing I discovered is that playing in C on a D-flute means that you are up in the octave and even higher most of the time. Only for this reason, the low C foot would be nice (for me) to have. If you rarely play in C, I think the disadvantages (cost, weight, effect on low D) outweigh the advantages. If you play regularly in C and F (I know you don't - this is really me musing aloud), it might be worth considering a separate keyless in C instead of trying to cram keys all over your main D flute.

The key of F works well enough, as there is a good spread of notes across both octaves. You need at least one F-key (preferably the long one if you only have one) and a Bb key. Speaking of Bb, I find it difficult to operate the Bb key with my LH thumb, which is normally glued in place as my main support. It's almost easier to use a cross-fingering.

Even if you are just playing ITM, the C-key is useful. I didn't think I would use it, but I was learning a tune from a more experienced player and she showed me how the C-key made a b-c-b phrase smoother, so I am now a convert. Also, I have tried a couple of times to use F-nats to create little triplet runs, and they are nice as well. I also use G# for Scottish tunes in A.

If you can afford it and really want keys, I would go for 6. If you really want 6, but can't afford it now, I think you can have the blocks installed for later addition of the keys. If you were buying used rather than ordering a new flute, I would settle for 4 or 5 if the right flute came up - there are bargains to be had. I don't think I would bother with 8.

All said with the caveat of my beginner status!

[Denny]

Jumbuk:

However, it is significantly heavier, which does make a difference when you play for a long period.

My Boehm is much heavier than my lined head 8 key. It, however, feels lighter while being played. Balance is a bigger deal than weight.

Speaking of Bb, I find it difficult to operate the Bb key with my LH thumb, which is normally glued in place as my main support. It's almost easier to use a cross-fingering.

Work on your left thumb...it should not be a main support. You should be able to take it off of the flute while playing a C# without the flute moving.

Flauta dolce:
I'd go with at least six if not eight. You may wish to play non ITM tunes some day.

[Whistlin'Dixie]

I "think" she's a strictly ITM player, and I think Sam's right.
FWIW

M

[Brian]

Hello,
You may also consider buying a keyless flute at first, (even without premeditated blocks attached) as post mounted keys can be added as needed in the future. They work just fine and as your playing style ergonomics settle in, your key placement postion can be precise.
This fine tuning assumes you will have" in person access" to your flute maker. Not always practical I grant.
All the best,
Brian

[johnkerr]

I would like to buy a keyed flute.

As I am only really interested in playing Irish music, I have a question:

How many keys should I get on the flute ? Sam Murray said all I need are three keys.

I have seen ITM artists with eight.

Advice and tips appreciated.

All of this talk about "Well, you may want to play other kinds of music some day", "For resale, you really want six (or eight) keys", "Of course you could get by with X keys, but you NEED six (or eight) keys", etc, is really getting away from Flauta dolce's original question. He/she was pretty adamant that he/she was ONLY interested in playing Irish music. Also, the need to ask the question in the first place, and the mention of Sam Murray, says to me that Flauta dolce is looking to buy a new keyed flute directly from a maker (probably Sam Murray) rather than a used flute, and also that Flauta dolce has limited funds and can't spring for the full six or eight keys that of course anyone would get if only they could afford them. Am I right, Flauta dolce? If so, ignore all these other people. Here's your advice:

You've got a keyless flute now. Take a hard look at what you (that's YOU, not anyone else on this board or anywhere else) can realistically hope to accomplish via half-holing, forked fingerings or whatever other means are available on a keyless flute in order to play these notes that will occur in 99.9 percent of the Irish tunes out there: C natural, F natural and G#. Don't worry about D#/Eb or Bb. Those notes show up in extremely few Irish tunes, and unless you really really want to play those tunes, don't go spending the couple of hundred dollars/Euro on those keys that you'll never use. Instead, focus on C natural, F natural and G#. My guess is that you'll be able to find your way around C natural fairly easily with the various forked fingerings or half-holing. Why do I say that? Because hundreds of Irish flute players out there playing G tunes day in and day out on keyless flutes are already doing it! Playing F natural and G# on keyless flutes, OTOH, is a lot harder. That's why all the Irish players with keyless flutes want keys!

So this gets you back to Sam Murray's three-key recommendation: G#, long F and short F. It is true that your resale options will be limited if you only go for three keys rather than six. But if you have a three-key Sam Murray flute, why on earth would you want to sell it anyway? (Ask Harry Bradley if you don't believe me.) If you're really concerned about the resale value being less with only the three keys, have Sam (or whoever your maker of choice is) make the flute with the blocks for the other three keys, but not the keys themselves. This should not cost you much if anything more than a three-key flute without the extra blocks, and then if you do want to sell it some day the buyer can take it to Sam or another maker and have the additional keys mounted. (If your maker does post-mounted keys this won't be an issue - but not all that many makers do post-mounted keys.)

Good luck with your fluting!

[GaryKelly]

An excellent post, JK.

There are only two clauses in it I question, and first is the assertion that: "...in order to play these notes that will occur in 99.9 percent of the Irish tunes out there: C natural, F natural and G#."

That sounds like 99.9% of all Irish tunes require Cnat, Fnat, and G#, and really the percentage of tunes requiring an Fnat or G# is very small compared to the number that don't require them at all.

I think you meant to say something along the lines of "in 99.9% of the relatively small number of Irish tunes that require notes outside of those readily available on a keyless D flute without cross-fingering, you only need Cnat, Fnat and G#, and of those, Cnat can be cross-fingered effectively...".

The difference may sound picky, but it's probably important for a newbie to understand that the vast majority of ITM tunes don't require keys at all.

The second clause is this one: "That's why all the Irish players with keyless flutes want keys!"

That's simply not true, and for a newcomer to ITM and fluting, could be very costly if taken as gospel. Given the thousands of tunes in one or two sharps that are easily accommodated on a keyless D, there's no real need for keys at all (the tin whistle wouldn't have lasted very long if fully chromatic instruments were de rigeur for this music).

[johnkerr]

There are only two clauses in it I question, and first is the assertion that: "...in order to play these notes that will occur in 99.9 percent of the Irish tunes out there: C natural, F natural and G#."

That sounds like 99.9% of all Irish tunes require Cnat, Fnat, and G#, and really the percentage of tunes requiring an Fnat or G# is very small compared to the number that don't require them at all. )

You're right, this was poorly worded. What I meant was that with only the C natural, G# and F natural keys and no others on your flute, you can play 99.9% of the Irish tune repertoire. You only need the other keys for a very very small subset of the Irish repertoire.

The second clause is this one: "That's why all the Irish players with keyless flutes want keys!"

That's simply not true, and for a newcomer to ITM and fluting, could be very costly if taken as gospel. Given the thousands of tunes in one or two sharps that are easily accommodated on a keyless D, there's no real need for keys at all (the tin whistle wouldn't have lasted very long if fully chromatic instruments were de rigeur for this music).

You've chosen to isolate a sentence here without citing the sentence prior to it that places it in context: "Playing F natural and G# on keyless flutes, OTOH, is a lot harder." While of course it is not impossible to play tunes in keys that need these notes on a keyless flute, and indeed there are players of keyless flutes who do this brilliantly, I think the principal underlying reason that anybody would want a keyed flute to play Irish music is as I said. Also, keep in mind the original post I was responding to, which was made by someone who already had decided they wanted keys and just wanted to know how many they should get. An answer to a specific individual question should never be interpreted as gospel by anybody!

[Jumbuk]

Jumbuk:
My Boehm is much heavier than my lined head 8 key. It, however, feels lighter while being played. Balance is a bigger deal than weight.

I stand by my own experience that going from a relatively light Burns FF to a blackwood keyed flute I did notice a significant difference in weight. Maybe it is the denser timber plus the extra silver work.

Work on your left thumb...it should not be a main support. You should be able to take it off of the flute while playing a C# without the flute moving.

Thanks for that advice. Following up with a bit of research afterwards, I discovered that many others have this same difficulty. Will just take a bit of directed practice to work on the grip and smooth changes.

[feadog39]

if you're going to go to the trouble to get a keyed flute, err on the side of more rather than less. i have a 4-key olwell: f-nat, g#, b-flat, c-nat. and i have the mounts for the others. i use all these keys--and these are exactly what i wanted after playing a six-keyed flute for many years. i hate the long F becasue i generally use the pipers grip, and i've never seemed to need the d#. anyway, if you want to play with those fiddlers who lauch into odd keys, then you need to the keys to keep up.

[tin tin]

anyway, if you want to play with those fiddlers who lauch into odd keys, then you need to the keys to keep up.

And the necessary technique as well! Just because the keys are on the flute doesn't mean "the odd keys" suddenly become easy and accessible.

[Denny]

anyway, if you want to play with those fiddlers who lauch into odd keys, then you need to the keys to keep up.

And the necessary technique as well! Just because the keys are on the flute doesn't mean "the odd keys" suddenly become easy and accessible.

having the keys makes it easier to practice using them...IMHO

[Cathy Wilde]

But if you have a three-key Sam Murray flute, why on earth would you want to sell it anyway?

Yep. And the rest of the stuff he said, too. I have a 4-key Murray (it was a six-key, but the long F and D-sharp keys are MIA), and I don't miss the other two at all. And I've used the Bb on, I think, one tune (Arthur Darley's), maybe two in the last year, and I play with a lot of people in a fair number of places. IMO, Sam and John are dead-on. The other keys are a convenience, but just get the blocks and you can add them when you have an extra six hundred Euro or so.

And FWIW, other people can make keys.

[tin tin]

having the keys makes it easier to practice using them...IMHO

Right...good point!

[Nanohedron]

And here's something to consider: if you plan to get low C#/Cnat keys, take into account the ergonomics concerning your grip and pinkie size. I was talking to a woman, asking her how much she uses her low keys, and she said she couldn't. We compared flutes, and her C touches were quite elevated compared to mine. Although not quite as small as hers, my hands are small for a man, and I have laughably short pinkies. I use "piper's grip" (she doesn't) and while I could operate her C keys, it was a bit unwieldy. For her it was pretty well impossible. She was able to operate my C keys, though.

The setup makes a difference. It would be a shame to spend that kind of money and not get any bang for your buck. Definitely take the initiative to confer with your maker of choice about that sort of thing.