Winnie Hayes and a difficult turn

JeffS · Post by **JeffS** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:11 pm

Inspired by John Williams lovely setting of this tune, I've begun learning it. However, there is a tricky turn in the 5th bar of the B part (c'3 bd'b). Anyone know this tune on a keyless D flute that might make a suggestion?

I know several variations of the c nature, my present favorite being,

0XX0X0

But the c note in the tune is quite high. Is there a way to make a 2nd octave c natural? I've never played a tune that called for it. Making the turn in the 5th and 6th bars of the B part isn't working for me. Any suggestions.
Here's the ABC version from thesession.org,

X: 1
T: Winnie Hayes'
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K: Ador
|: edB ~A2A | BAA ABd | edB ~A2A | BAG Bdd |
edB ~A2A | BAG A2a | age deg | age dBA :|
|: efg ~a2a | bag a2g | e2a aea | ~b2b gab |
c'3 bd'b | age a2a | age deg | age dBA :|

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:30 am

On my flute OXOOOO seems to do the trick. Flutes do seem to vary on what gives the best note up there though.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:00 am

you can slide up the finger a bit and half hole the c or try hitting the high harmonic by playing XOOXXO or XOXXXO (or a variant, whichever is the clearest and most in tune, different flutes respond differently so explore various fingerings, added advantage is the possibility of playing a roll on c'). Also play ~b3 rather than hitting high d' in bd'b.
Alternatively, transpose to lower key: BAF ~E3 FEE E

springrobin · Post by **springrobin** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:37 pm

It would be helpful to know who made your flute and which model (if you know) you have. With simple system flutes, different designs can change performance and fingering.

Don't expect me to answer your question but there are folks who can...

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:30 pm

There's a High Cnatural in part B of Leon's Waltz which I was trying to learn from the first Wooden Flute Obsession CD. After trying a lot of cross finger and failing miserably someone suggested Half holing. This works great and lets me easily slide the roll with the b and a in that measure.

On both my flute and my Overton low-d it works out that a high C natural is HOO OOO (or HOO OXO with the X to keep the darn thing from sliding out of my hands).

Once I tried it I realized that it must be the way it was recorded too because I could hear him slur it. The roll sounds like c3babcb3

When I go into the c I tend to slur up a little to it by sliding my left index finger off the hole. I slide the tip of the finger towards me and up to get a half hole that is the half on my side (as opposed to rolling it to the left to open the hole to the right of me. I then slide the finger back to get the b.

Ro3b · Post by **Ro3b** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:58 am

Instead of |c'3 bd'b|, which sounds godawful on the flute, I usually play something like |c'ba abb| or |c'ee bee|. The cross-fingering oxo xxx works perfectly on most flutes I've played. The problem with that note isn't so much hitting it as the fact that it's long and you can't really roll it.

[/quote]

JeffS · Post by **JeffS** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:41 am

I tried Peter's suggestion insofar as going from the c natural into a b roll. That works pretty well. I have a keyless Olwell. I've noticed some wildly different suggestions for making the c natural note on the concert flute. To my ear, none of them sound too good. I usually just make a pass through the note in the tunes I play - with a few exceptions.

Anyhow, I'll keep at it and make another post should I find something fully satisfying. Thanks for the suggestions.

Jeff

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:14 am

JeffS wrote: I have a keyless Olwell. I've noticed some wildly different suggestions for making the c natural note on the concert flute. To my ear, none of them sound too good.

The best for my Olwell Pratten (at least the way I blow) is the same as Rob suggested: OXO XXX which works well for the first octave C and better than any other fingering I've tried for the 2nd octave C, although you do have to force it more in the second, to keep the note from going flat.

I'd still rather have keys though - the cross fingered C nat just doesn't do it for me.

Loren

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:02 am

As the spoiled owner of a keyed flute, I typically would use the key to play a second-octave C natural. (Oddly enough, I rarely use the key for the first octave C, instead sticking with the oxx ooo cross fingering. A relic from my years with a keyless flute, I suppose.) However, for the high C natural I could just as easily use the half hole fingering, and sometimes do. More often than not, tunes that contain a high C will have that as the highest note in the tune, and again more often than not the high C is preceded and followed by a high B. This makes it very easy to half hole the high C, as only a movement of the index finger and perhaps some lipping to get the note in tune is needed. For smoothness of fingering, the axiom is always that the fewer the number of fingers needed to be moved to change notes, the better - and you can't get better than a one finger movement. Cross fingerings are always going to require moving several fingers, making it very tough to play them as smoothly as the half-hole fingering. So if I were faced with the task of learning how to play a high C natural and fit it into tunes on a keyless flute, I'd spend my time working on the half hole. The payoff has got to be highest there.

And before anybody asks, why don't I half-hole the lower octave C natural? Simply because much of the time the C natural is preceded or followed by a note in the second octave, meaning that even the half hole and keyed fingerings are going to require movements of multiple fingers. So in the lower octave, using the forked fingering and making it smooth is not a challenge in comparison with the other fingerings.

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:23 am

Another comment relative to choosing fingerings for troublesome notes like C natural: Do not ignore the role of embouchure in the equation. Your goal is to be able to play tune passages smoothly and in tune. Again with my axiom that the fewer muscles needing to be moved, the easier it will be to play smoothly, keep in mind that an embouchure adjustment is basically equivalent to a one-finger movement. So, if you're choosing between cross-fingerings and find that there's one that seems to fall under your fingers better than the others, but it's unfortunately out of tune, try lipping it up or down to get it in tune. This may seem awkward at first, but with practice the lip adjustment will come automatically every time you finger the note. You are already used to adjusting your lips for certain notes (such as the hard low D), aren't you? Good flute playing involves a constant interplay between the fingers and the lip, so never forget the role of embouchure when you're working on tricky spots in your playing.

Ro3b · Post by **Ro3b** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:33 am

And for heavens' sake, practice the high notes and make sure they're beautiful. Remember you need to blow them much more softly than the lower range.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:13 pm

Amen. And if your OXO XXX is funky, you can also try OXX OXX but watch it for flatness, too. Anyway, that's probably this lazy gal's favorite -- on things like the Ivy Leaf I'll play that and tap with my RH index finger to make sort of a C-D triplet. It's not the greatest, but if you're moving along it works OK and seems to lend a kind of fun percussive effect.

For high C, I also like either half-holing or a simple OXO OOO, especially on the whistle.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:15 pm

Ro3b wrote:Instead of |c'3 bd'b|, which sounds godawful on the flute, I usually play something like |c'ba abb| or |c'ee bee|. The cross-fingering oxo xxx works perfectly on most flutes I've played. The problem with that note isn't so much hitting it as the fact that it's long and you can't really roll it.

[/quote]

Well, duh, Cath. That's a great idea, Rob. Thanks!

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:24 pm

Ro3b wrote:And for heavens' sake, practice the high notes and make sure they're beautiful. Remember you need to blow them much more softly than the lower range.

I've been working away at this for 18 months now, at first you can't believe they could ever be used for anything but scaring cat's. But bit by bit they do get sweeter and it does yer second octave no end of good, I expect mine to be fully musical say around 2012...