Is "pure drop" B.S.?

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talasiga
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Post by talasiga »

Nanohedron wrote:
talasiga wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:Just an aside, but you know, this thread ought to have been posted in the Trad Music Forum now that I think of it. :wink:
I am not sure about that becuase ITM is not the only trad and simple system whistles and flutes are not monopoloised by ITM. Thats why there is a discrete ITM forum (so as not to implicate that these other forums are just about ITM). Cannedpiper's topic and first post invites an open, in principle, discussion about tradition, innovation and room to move. I think it's appropriate that it not be restricted to ITM only.

That is not say that ITM may not predominantly inform this discussion if the participants so wish. However it would not mean that universals on the subject must be excluded or parallels based on other traditions and innovations may not be tested within the discussion.
So far as I am aware, "Pure Drop" is solely an ITM term. Where the conversation leads from there matters not a whit as far as I'm concerned. The topic from its inception has been of music, not whistles, hence my rather tongue-in-cheek post. But since you apparently need to nitpick about THAT, who's stopping you?

Not to be wooden about it, but have we discussed the virtues of whistles here? You know, this being the Whistle Forum, and all. :poke:
I am sorry Nano but you may be forgetting you're a Moderator now
and when you make a comment like that it could be foreshadowing that you are about to move the topic.

My post was just a civil argument as to why it should remain here.

In light of this your assumptions about my nitpicking are unwarranted.

Also, your points about this topic's nexus with whistles appear vapid.
Perhaps canpiper wanted to have this discussion among whistle players rather than specifically ITM purists. I don not why you you would think whistles are something separate to music.
qui jure suo utitur neminem laedit
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GaryKelly
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Post by GaryKelly »

Bloomfield wrote:Notice by the way, if we take the chiffboard as a little microcosm, that in the supposed divide between normal people and IRT elitists, the labelling goes only in one direction: The are the trad-snobs, the snobes, the trad police, etc etc. There's no label for "the other side." What does that tell you about who is trying to make whom conform to their idea of what should be played or said?
Coulters.
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bradhurley
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Post by bradhurley »

Bloomfield wrote: The are the trad-snobs, the snobes, the trad police, etc etc. There's no label for "the other side."
Yes there is: they're called Muggles.
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Dave Parkhurst
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Post by Dave Parkhurst »

I think there is a line between respect for tradition, and especially the tunes and players who have withstood the test of time, and looking with scorn upon those who have the initiative to try to break new ground. I've been called to task more than once while competing in a pipe band for trying non-trad tunes on GHB (did you know you can play the Flinstone's theme on the Highland pipes and the Mickey Mouse theme also.... kewl.....). Yet, there are tunes and styles which have so successfully broke the "trad" boundaries that noone even stopped to thumb their nose at them (ie: The Road to Skye, a gorgeous, long piping piece played by Simon Frazier Univ. Band, which was intended to be a piano piece, is a superb work of art). There is always room for a radical who wants to try something wierd, and it should always be that way, but one should never forget the refinement and heritage of what brought us to this point in time.
Cheers,
Dave
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Post by Nanohedron »

talasiga wrote:My post was just a civil argument as to why it should remain here.

In light of this your assumptions about my nitpicking are unwarranted.
You are right in that I was perhaps being too harsh, and I apologise for that. I could have done better. But your assertion that I am making a separation of whistles from music is stretching things, though. There are forums and forums here, and a thread debating "pure drop" belongs in the ITM forum. That's the structure of the setup, and I decided to hew to it, however innocuous the issue may be to some. I'm nitpicky that way, myself.

If you see my point about whistles as vapid, I can't help you there. Please feel free to discuss this with Dale if it troubles you. I won't explain my decision on this any further.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Balochi musician
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Post by Bloomfield »

Dave Parkhurst wrote:I think there is a line between respect for tradition, and especially the tunes and players who have withstood the test of time, and looking with scorn upon those who have the initiative to try to break new ground. I've been called to task more than once while competing in a pipe band for trying non-trad tunes on GHB (did you know you can play the Flinstone's theme on the Highland pipes and the Mickey Mouse theme also.... kewl.....). Yet, there are tunes and styles which have so successfully broke the "trad" boundaries that noone even stopped to thumb their nose at them (ie: The Road to Skye, a gorgeous, long piping piece played by Simon Frazier Univ. Band, which was intended to be a piano piece, is a superb work of art). There is always room for a radical who wants to try something wierd, and it should always be that way, but one should never forget the refinement and heritage of what brought us to this point in time.
Cheers,
Dave
I think the GHB with its regimental flavor and set-in-stone approach to the tunes and the ornaments is a very different animal from the informal Irish tradition which you see more variation, personal style, and experimentation, IMHO.
/Bloomfield
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johnkerr
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Post by johnkerr »

Dave Parkhurst wrote:I think there is a line between respect for tradition, and especially the tunes and players who have withstood the test of time, and looking with scorn upon those who have the initiative to try to break new ground. ... There is always room for a radical who wants to try something wierd, and it should always be that way, but one should never forget the refinement and heritage of what brought us to this point in time.
Two quotes/sayings come to mind for me here. The first is something that I've heard said about Sheila Kay Adams, a seventh-generation Appalachian ballad singer from western North Carolina: “She might not always know where she’s going, but she sure knows where she comes from.” In this current debate, I think the relevance is that innovation in Irish trad music seems most often to be championed or defended by those who have not been long in the tradition themselves. They know exactly where they want the music to go, but they have no clue at all where it came from!

The second saying, "Home is the place where, when you show up, they have to take you in." This is, I think, at the root of the scorn often expressed at innovators in ITM. It takes a long time for someone to claim that they are "at home" in ITM. In many ways, you really do need to be born and nurtured into it. People like myself (who's been at it for close on to 20 years now) and Brad (who's been at it even longer than me) will always be nothing more than blow-ins to this music, no matter how many more years we keep at it. People who want to innovate and take ITM in new directions are like the renter who moves into the spare bedroom of your house and immediately starts wanting to make wholesale changes in the decor. Of course there will be scorn. This is your home, not theirs. But when your grown-up kid comes back and suggests the same changes, you probably won't look as askance at it. After all, this is his home, too. You may not like the changes, but at least you'll accept some or even most of them, maybe with some grumbling but certainly without scorn.
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Post by riverman »

Thanks, all, for your kind replies to my newbie observations. I was afraid I might be thrashed--and wasn't!

Steve Shaw: Thanks! Hearing that you heard songs played slower by the Irish encourages me. I think too-fast playing could be ego driven. But... if I could play that fast, I might be tempted to do the same...

Bloomfield: Blast it! You had to say that, didn't you! All right, I'll begin to practice my rolls for years and years and years... :) I do prefer half rolls to rolls, however. My tutorial says they're harder, but to me they seem easier.

Cynth: I have found Grey Larson's "Tin Whistle Toolbox" tutorial and song books immensely valuable in learning ITM, because he sticks the signs for rolls, cuts, etc. right in there, helping me to know WHERE to use them. He even helps you decide where to BREATHE!

Nanohedron: Of COURSE I'm a "reverse elitest!" I HATE it that you guys play better than I can!! :P

Alurker: Of COURSE it should "be Irish" even if it's Scottish! Just don't TELL 'em!

My only serious rebellion may be in the slow airs category. I don't know if I WANT that many pauses, even in a slow song! And in Northern Indiana, I doubt if anyone will come around who can call me on it. Most Indiana people don't even know what a whistle IS!

Love to y'all!
"Whoever comes to me I will never drive away." --Jesus Christ.
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Post by Cynth »

riverman wrote:Thanks, all, for your kind replies to my newbie observations. I was afraid I might be thrashed--and wasn't!

Steve Shaw: Thanks! Hearing that you heard songs played slower by the Irish encourages me. I think too-fast playing could be ego driven. But... if I could play that fast, I might be tempted to do the same...

Bloomfield: Blast it! You had to say that, didn't you! All right, I'll begin to practice my rolls for years and years and years... :) I do prefer half rolls to rolls, however. My tutorial says they're harder, but to me they seem easier.

Cynth: I have found Grey Larson's "Tin Whistle Toolbox" tutorial and song books immensely valuable in learning ITM, because he sticks the signs for rolls, cuts, etc. right in there, helping me to know WHERE to use them. He even helps you decide where to BREATHE!

Nanohedron: Of COURSE I'm a "reverse elitest!" I HATE it that you guys play better than I can!! :P

Alurker: Of COURSE it should "be Irish" even if it's Scottish! Just don't TELL 'em!

My only serious rebellion may be in the slow airs category. I don't know if I WANT that many pauses, even in a slow song! And in Northern Indiana, I doubt if anyone will come around who can call me on it. Most Indiana people don't even know what a whistle IS!

Love to y'all!
:lol: I think it's just fine to play airs how you want to and you could just tell people that you are playing the air in your own style not the traditional sean-nos style. That way they won't be miss-educated, if you see what I mean. My only problem is ever with what people call something, not with what they do. I like Grey Larsen too. Other people don't. But we don't want to go there now. Everything is controversial, as you will see. It was nice meeting you!
Diligentia maximum etiam mediocris ingeni subsidium. ~ Diligence is a very great help even to a mediocre intelligence.----Seneca
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riverman
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Post by riverman »

Thanks, Cynth, I'll do that!
"Whoever comes to me I will never drive away." --Jesus Christ.
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talasiga
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Post by talasiga »

Nanohedron wrote:......
Please feel free to discuss this with Dale if it troubles you. I won't explain my decision on this any further.
That is not going to happen Nano.
I respect your decision to move the topic even though I don't agree with it.

It just means that people who insist that only those who are totally immersed in ITM have any business in commenting on it
may now need to come forward and confirm that they themselves comply with their own criterion.

Speaking for myself, I love traditions as I love rivers. And I like to swim in them and not drown.
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Post by Jack »

talasiga wrote:I love traditions as I love rivers. And I like to swim in them and not drown.
That's a great saying. And it's true. It seems a lot of folks (here and elsewhere) are drowning. I myself don't even like to swim. I just like to put my foot in or go wading to look for salamanders.
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Post by Nanohedron »

Cranberry wrote:
talasiga wrote:I love traditions as I love rivers. And I like to swim in them and not drown.
That's a great saying. And it's true. It seems a lot of folks (here and elsewhere) are drowning. I myself don't even like to swim. I just like to put my foot in or go wading to look for salamanders.
If an obdurate love of something is what you call drowning, then go live your life in peace and stop trying to "save" me. You're mistaken if you think my life would be improved for it.
riverman wrote:Nanohedron: Of COURSE I'm a "reverse elitest!" I HATE it that you guys play better than I can!!
Don't speak too soon. I'll bet you haven't heard me yet. :wink:
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Post by Cynth »

Nanohedron wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
talasiga wrote:I love traditions as I love rivers. And I like to swim in them and not drown.
That's a great saying. And it's true. It seems a lot of folks (here and elsewhere) are drowning. I myself don't even like to swim. I just like to put my foot in or go wading to look for salamanders.
If an obdurate love of something is what you call drowning, then go live your life in peace and stop trying to "save" me. You're mistaken if you think my life would be improved for it.
And I love traditions as I love lakes. I love sinking into the unknown depths of ancient still waters hearing nothing but the song of the lake in my ears, no intrusive thrashings of arms and legs, and never drowning but being borne effortlessly up by the singing waters for air and then sinking deeper still as I begin to know the lake.

I hope this met the nonsense requirement. I gave it my best shot :lol:.
Diligentia maximum etiam mediocris ingeni subsidium. ~ Diligence is a very great help even to a mediocre intelligence.----Seneca
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Post by Denny »

Cynth wrote:I hope this met the nonsense requirement. I gave it my best shot :lol:.
It was brilliant! :D
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