Is "pure drop" B.S.?

[anniemcu]

Problem is indeed the more you learn, the more you understand there is still another enormous lot you have yet to grasp, not sure that ever ends. all you can do is add layers as you go along and keep an open ear and mind for more.

I think this is a very profound statement, applicable to not only ITM but all aspects of life.

Indeed!

[johnkerr]

What this says to me is that these folks weren't playing Irish music, they were playing old-timey music.

Their entry was to Irish music first but they made virtually no impact into the Irish scene. They learned those Irish tunes first. They discovered/tried old-timey and were so well embraced by that crowd that they were quite astonished. One said to me once 'over there, I am treated like a king but here I'm lucky to get a nod or acknowledgement'. Most of these folks were non-Irish and not having any Irish-ethnic connections.

Okay, but I think you've missed my point. Were these people playing Irish music, or just a series of notes that matched up more or less with the series of notes found in Irish tunes? My guess is that they were playing the notes, but not the music. And did they change anything at all when they switched to old-time? If not, then whatever it was they were playing must surely have resembled old-time more than it did Irish music.

If they were looking for acknowledgement or recognition when they showed up on the Irish scene, then that says to me that they were looking to take the first steps into joining the Irish music community. And except for religious cults, I don't know of any communities that just automatically embrace newcomers simply for just showing up. There needs to be some connection on which to hang the initial acknowledgement or recognition. If someone is Irish, even if they don't play the music there is still some connection with a community of Irish musicians. Likewise, if someone isn't Irish but they can play the music (or even if they exhibit a strong desire to want to learn it) there is a connection that can ease their entry into the community. But if someone or some group just starts showing up and playing Irish tunes in a decidedly non-Irish style, why should they expect any recognition or acknowledgement from the community, aside from perhaps "Geez, would you listen to the way yer man is ruining that tune!"? Indeed, the "pure drop" reaction in such situations is the cold shoulder...

[anniemcu]

Loren, I think you make a great point. I don't think we are in disagreement.

I do think that even after lessons or pointers, your best learning still comes from playing along with those further down the road than you. I guess what I'm saying is that lessons and pointers are absolutely necessary but for most of us they aren't enough by themselves.

At least they weren't for me.

Respectfully,

--James

Which brings in another aspect of the differences in both the music and opinions... depending on the resources available, one learns what one is capable and inspired to learn. If your introduction to Irish music is through the most pure form (whatever the defiinition of that may be) you will be starting at one point... if your introduction to it is through a twig on a branch farther out, your starting point will be different... then, it depends on which direction you care to go... back to the roots (valuable in its own right) or outward along that branch, or even taking some pollen from a bloom there and adding it to the bud you already have of your own... also valuable in music, just not "pure". Not everyone who listens to Irish music ("pure" or not) is going to head down the path to it's deepest roots, but heading away from there doesn't necessarily negate the influence it will have upon that person's music.

This is such a cyclical argument, because there is not a "right" or "wrong" in this question, there is only each individual's choice, and the depth to which they choose to pursue that. Even in what many consider the 'pure drop tradition' of ITM, it is the variations that interest me. No two people play a tune exactly the same, and that is testement to the living nature of music... each breath brings in a new mix of molecules, and exhales a new and unique mixture having bits of that person's essence.

Even within the specific parameters of a given style, it may continue without becoming stagnent. Even in the deepest recesses of that style, one person may not play the same tune exactly the same way each time, yet still stay within the parameters of that style. If you are inspired to immerse into that style, you will learn that style's 'language' and nuances, and with time and dilligence, become nearly indistinguishable from a native 'speaker', ... you may choose to take up residence there.

However, others may prefer to learn a little of several languages and continue to travel. Like a bee with fat pollen sacks on it's legs, their travels will introduce others to a little bit of the original. That's not necessarily a bad thing at all.

Argh... I can't seem to get around this without too many words...
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[Jim McGuire]

They were folks trying to play Irish music - whether or not they made the grade, they were not stupendously received within Irish circles. Playing the same tunes in the same fashion as they were 'trying' to play Irish music was a big hit with the old-timey folks.

Whether or not they were playing old-timey music 'correctly', I would not have a clue. They were heralded and lauded over there.

[Nanohedron]

Just an aside, but you know, this thread ought to have been posted in the Trad Music Forum now that I think of it.

I am not sure about that becuase ITM is not the only trad and simple system whistles and flutes are not monopoloised by ITM. Thats why there is a discrete ITM forum (so as not to implicate that these other forums are just about ITM). Cannedpiper's topic and first post invites an open, in principle, discussion about tradition, innovation and room to move. I think it's appropriate that it not be restricted to ITM only.

That is not say that ITM may not predominantly inform this discussion if the participants so wish. However it would not mean that universals on the subject must be excluded or parallels based on other traditions and innovations may not be tested within the discussion.

So far as I am aware, "Pure Drop" is solely an ITM term. Where the conversation leads from there matters not a whit as far as I'm concerned. The topic from its inception has been of music, not whistles, hence my rather tongue-in-cheek post. But since you apparently need to nitpick about THAT, who's stopping you?

Not to be wooden about it, but have we discussed the virtues of whistles here? You know, this being the Whistle Forum, and all.

[Jim McGuire]

As far as the "Pure Drop', didn't Comhaltas standardize the whistle that can be used in competition? Only six tone holes, etc.

As folks started to stretch the whistle that had been used for hundreds of years with design innovations (or at least bringing those innovations into the scene), people thought it best to 'slow down' that departure from what is traditional and publish/insist on a standard.

Some view that as too restrictive; some as necessary.

[Nanohedron]

Good man, yerself, Jim.

[bradhurley]

They were folks trying to play Irish music - whether or not they made the grade, they were not stupendously received within Irish circles. Playing the same tunes in the same fashion as they were 'trying' to play Irish music was a big hit with the old-timey folks.

I can think of quite a few great old-timey musicians who also play Irish, but most Irish musicians would have a hard time listening to them. The old-timey folks listening to your players probably were too in the dark to tell the difference between a good Irish player and an old-timey player who plays a few Irish tunes. I've heard Jay Ungar play Irish music and he just doesn't have it, whereas I can (and have) happily listened to him for hours playing old-timey and swing. He's a brilliant musician, but he doesn't know how to play Irish music. Same goes for James Galway, the classical flutist. He's an amazing classical player but when he picks up a tin whistle and plays traditional tunes it doesn't sound right. If he spent 20 years studying and learning traditional music with the same discipline and seriousness that he brought to his studies of classical music, I'm sure he'd be a great traditional player. But he didn't and he's not.

[Cynth]

Just an aside, but you know, this thread ought to have been posted in the Trad Music Forum now that I think of it.

I am not sure about that becuase ITM is not the only trad and simple system whistles and flutes are not monopoloised by ITM. Thats why there is a discrete ITM forum (so as not to implicate that these other forums are just about ITM). Cannedpiper's topic and first post invites an open, in principle, discussion about tradition, innovation and room to move. I think it's appropriate that it not be restricted to ITM only.

That is not say that ITM may not predominantly inform this discussion if the participants so wish. However it would not mean that universals on the subject must be excluded or parallels based on other traditions and innovations may not be tested within the discussion.

So far as I am aware, "Pure Drop" is solely an ITM term. Where the conversation leads from there matters not a whit as far as I'm concerned. The topic from its inception has been of music, not whistles, hence my rather tongue-in-cheek post. But since you apparently need to nitpick about THAT, who's stopping you?

Not to be wooden about it, but have we discussed the virtues of whistles here? You know, this being the Whistle Forum, and all.

Well, talasiga, even if you think it shouldn't go in the ITM forum, it seems pretty clear that it is even less (although who cares, sorry, Nano, I know it's your job ) appropriate for the Whistle Forum. SO, what forum if not the ITM forum would be better?

[Nanohedron]

Ah, Cynth, you are the voice of reason. So be it.

[Jack]

I think most everybody takes this issue too personally and/or too seriously, to be honest.

[Nanohedron]

I think most everybody takes this issue too personally and/or too seriously, to be honest.

I think it depends on what your personal goals are. There's something to be said for learning a language if you want to speak it. Slang and mixed-bag patois can come later if that's what you want to do, but it's a good idea not to make the mistake of presuming one is entirely the other. That, I think, is the gist of this thread.

[Jack]

I think most everybody takes this issue too personally and/or too seriously, to be honest.

I think it depends on what your personal goals are. There's something to be said for learning a language if you want to speak it. Slang and mixed-bag patois can come later if that's what you want to do, but it's a good idea not to make the mistake of presuming one is entirely the other. That, I think, is the gist of this thread.

I don't think that's the gist of this thread at all. To me, this thread is saying that Patois or Creoles are "bad" languages to learn and that only the "pure" languages are worthy. That, of course, is insensitive and approaching xenophobic.

Or Enyaphobic, as the case my be.

[Nanohedron]

I think most everybody takes this issue too personally and/or too seriously, to be honest.

I think it depends on what your personal goals are. There's something to be said for learning a language if you want to speak it. Slang and mixed-bag patois can come later if that's what you want to do, but it's a good idea not to make the mistake of presuming one is entirely the other. That, I think, is the gist of this thread.

I don't think that's the gist of this thread at all. To me, this thread is saying that Patois or Creoles are "bad" languages to learn and that only the "pure" languages are worthy. That, of course, is xenophobic. Or Enyaphobic, as the case my be.

I can't agree. Brad Hurley, for just one example, cited a very valid point above, and wasn't throwing stones while he was at it.

[Jack]

I changed it to "approaching xenophic" for that reason. The point remains largely the same, though.

VIVE LA ENYA!!!