All that glitters is not gold.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:58 pm

Wouldn't be the only time Tolkien used Christian symbolic language.

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:00 pm

peeplj wrote:All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be King.

--J.R.R. Tolkien

--James.tar.gz

Yes, when I first read that, I did ponder the total boolean exclusion - meaning that gold never glitters. = to absolute set "gold" apply absolute negation of property "glitter". Since the poem was set in the absolute context "of Aragorn" I took the line to communicate that Aragorn was keeping a low profile i.e. not glittering and being in a reduced context did not apply to anything else that might be gold and not electing to be covered in crud.

. That's assuming Tolkien was the pre-eminent language stallwart he is painted to be.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:02 pm

Walden wrote:Wouldn't be the only time Tolkien used Christian symbolic language.

So I've heard. I've never read Tolkien.

Perhaps I might I should, if only I had the time.

scottielvr · Post by **scottielvr** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:14 am

Mitch wrote:Yes, when I first read that, I did ponder the total boolean exclusion - meaning that gold never glitters. = to absolute set "gold" apply absolute negation of property "glitter". Since the poem was set in the absolute context "of Aragorn" I took the line to communicate that Aragorn was keeping a low profile i.e. not glittering and being in a reduced context did not apply to anything else that might be gold and not electing to be covered in crud. . That's assuming Tolkien was the pre-eminent language stallwart he is painted to be.

Your commendably relentless application of Boole to Shakespeare and now Tolkien reminds me of E.B. White's remark about humor: ...[in these cases, the poetry] "can be dissected, as a frog can, but the thing dies in the process and the innards are discouraging to any but the pure scientific mind."

Lambchop · Post by **Lambchop** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:23 am

Cranberry wrote:
Walden wrote:Wouldn't be the only time Tolkien used Christian symbolic language.
So I've heard. I've never read Tolkien.

Perhaps I might I should, if only I had the time.

The amazing thing about people is that they nearly always make time to do what they want to do.

If you used 15 minutes of the time you waste here, you could get a lot of things done.

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:46 am

Cranberry wrote:
peeplj wrote: Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be King.
That reminds me of Jesus.

I'd call that observational bias.

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:50 am

Lambchop wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
Walden wrote:Wouldn't be the only time Tolkien used Christian symbolic language.
So I've heard. I've never read Tolkien.

Perhaps I might I should, if only I had the time.

The amazing thing about people is that they nearly always make time to do what they want to do.

If you used 15 minutes of the time you waste here, you could get a lot of things done.

I feel the same whenever anyone asks "should I take up playing the fiddle or (insert excuse of choice here)?"

I want to say "If you have to ask the opinion of people you've who don't know you very well, opinions on whether you have sufficient motivation to put in the time and effort required to learn this tricky instrument, then you probably shouldn't." but I usually refrain.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:03 am

Tolkien used most of the Big Myths in his stories, starting with Creation, when the world was created by song (nice touch, that!), the transition from a flat earth to a round one (the Elder Days vs all the Ages that came later), Atlantis (Numenor), Arthur (Aragorn), and so forth.

His writings aren't overtly Christian--C.S. Lewis took that path, and Tolkien was critical of it (and, I think, rightly so)--but Tolkien was certainly strongly Christian and there is a Christ-like figure to be found in his writings, but it's not Aragorn, it's Frodo. It is Frodo who must sacrificed (by destroying the Ring in the Fire), and who by so doing, though he survives it (which was by no means certain), loses himself so that others may have home and peace.

As to the verses about Aragorn, I think your analysis is good. Tolkien was a very precise word-smith, to a degree other authors rarely if ever attain, and he wrote exactly what he meant. "All that is gold does not glitter" means literally "There is gold that glitters, but there is also gold that doesn't." This refers to Aragorn and his appearance (the scruffy, rascally ranger) vs his reality (a King in self-imposed exile, one of the last in whom the blood of Numenor ran true).

--James

P.S. I actually spend very little time on the boards or on the Net in general. I pop in and out a few times each day, but unless something catches my eye, I spend only a few seconds on each board at any given time.

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:42 am

All coffee beans are brown
But not all brown things are coffee beans

All gold glitters
But not all that glitters is gold

jsluder · Post by **jsluder** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:24 am

talasiga wrote:All coffee beans are brown
But not all brown things are coffee beans

I've seen green coffee beans.

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:41 am

peeplj wrote: "All that is gold does not glitter" means literally "There is gold that glitters, but there is also gold that doesn't." This refers to Aragorn and his appearance (the scruffy, rascally ranger) vs his reality (a King in self-imposed exile, one of the last in whom the blood of Numenor ran true).

All that is gold does not glitter seems to me to mean that everything that is gold does not glitter or no gold glitters. I could understand it better if it said not all that is gold glitters.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:24 am

Lambchop wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
Walden wrote:Wouldn't be the only time Tolkien used Christian symbolic language.
So I've heard. I've never read Tolkien.

Perhaps I might I should, if only I had the time.

The amazing thing about people is that they nearly always make time to do what they want to do.

If you used 15 minutes of the time you waste here, you could get a lot of things done.

You never waste a second arguing on the Internet, do you?

jsluder · Post by **jsluder** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:30 am

SteveK wrote:
peeplj wrote: "All that is gold does not glitter" means literally "There is gold that glitters, but there is also gold that doesn't." This refers to Aragorn and his appearance (the scruffy, rascally ranger) vs his reality (a King in self-imposed exile, one of the last in whom the blood of Numenor ran true).

All that is gold does not glitter seems to me to mean that everything that is gold does not glitter or no gold glitters. I could understand it better if it said not all that is gold glitters.

"All does not glitter," (unlike "Nothing glitters") does not eliminate the possibility that some may glitter. It does, however, mean that there is always some that doesn't glitter.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:40 am

(That's the traditional square of opposition, based on Aristotle.)

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:58 am

Bloomfield wrote:(That's the traditional square of opposition, based on Aristotle.)

Aristotle did well for someone that did not know nothing.