Shocking bore

Aerowhip · Post by **Aerowhip** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:39 pm

Good on ya, CB!

Chiffed · Post by **Chiffed** » Wed May 24, 2006 11:14 pm

My gut reaction: $750?

Next (more rational?) reaction: French horns. The hand-hammering on hand-made horns introduces 'imperfections' that allow them to be played with greater flexibility of pitch and tone, while sacrificing little of the 'presence' of other well-designed (though machine made) horns.

You're not paying for the craftsman's hands; you're paying for his ears.

BTW: To the guy making my next flute: all things being equal, I want a smooth bore, please.

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Wed May 24, 2006 11:43 pm

Chiffed wrote: BTW: To the guy making my next flute: all things being equal, I want a smooth bore, please.

20 minutes of sanding and polishing, not a problem, I'm on it...

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Thu May 25, 2006 1:06 am

Heh heh, if warping presented a serious acoustical problem, the French Horn players would certainly be in trouble!

"And the music goes round and round .....
and, ummm, doesn't seem to come out!"

Some time back I asked Prof. Neville Fletcher why Cooktown Ironwood, which often doesn't take a high finish, seems always to make a very lively flute. He discounted the dimples on the golfball theory (which relies on breaking up laminar flow and the drag it creates), and suggested it might be due to less thermal loss to friction. About 1% of the pneumatic energy we put into our flutes comes out as sound, most of the rest goes to heating the flute (not to be confused with the actual heat of our breath heating the flute). So you wouldn't need to make much dent in 99% to make a significant improvement in the remaining 1%.

Now that's not to say making the bore purposefully and indiscriminately rough is a good idea (there's presumably good rough and bad rough), but it is to say that there are a number of principles at work and they are not all pulling in the same direction. As someone mentioned previously, the ear remains the final arbiter.

Terry

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Thu May 25, 2006 5:38 am

Really great posts from all, especially Casey!

This has been one of the better threads we've had on the board for a long time, in my opinion.

--James

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Thu May 25, 2006 5:42 am

I agree James - an interesting thread indeed. And, how the flute sounds is truly my measure of an instrument...

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Thu May 25, 2006 7:10 am

Loren wrote:I have, from time to time, considered posting such photos here (without naming the maker(s) of course), because I've run across some really ugly stuff - things that should, in my opinion, never have been allowed to leave a maker's shop. And I do believe that flute buyers are better off knowing what to look for, with regards to quality and craftsmanship.

Loren, have you played these examples? Have you found peculiarities
in the sounds that can be directly linked to the roughness? I'm curious
as to what the added turbulence will do to the overall sound...

The rifling on a gun causes the bullet to spin and improves distance
and acuracy... Would flute rifling start the column of air spining?

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Thu May 25, 2006 7:22 am

Good post, Casey. And, as I said, the flute plays quite well...much better than a Bb flute I once owned that cost more than double the price of this one.

Sillydill · Post by **Sillydill** » Thu May 25, 2006 7:50 am

Honestly!

I’m trying to keep from this discussion, but can’t.

My tail feathers haven’t grown back yet from my previous post on this topic.

But anything for the sake of science!

A flute’s tone is only one of the qualities affected by bore texture. A more appreciable quality effected is response. A smooth bore greatly improves a flute’s response and articulation. Or, at least this has been my interpretation of the results.

All the Best!

Jordan

Jumbuk · Post by **Jumbuk** » Thu May 25, 2006 7:52 am

I think this thread is well-named

Congratulations · Post by **Congratulations** » Thu May 25, 2006 7:55 am

Jumbuk wrote:I think this thread is well-named

Oh, you are a party pooper!

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Thu May 25, 2006 8:03 am

fearfaoin wrote:
Loren wrote:I have, from time to time, considered posting such photos here (without naming the maker(s) of course), because I've run across some really ugly stuff - things that should, in my opinion, never have been allowed to leave a maker's shop. And I do believe that flute buyers are better off knowing what to look for, with regards to quality and craftsmanship.
Loren, have you played these examples? Have you found peculiarities
in the sounds that can be directly linked to the roughness? I'm curious
as to what the added turbulence will do to the overall sound...

The rifling on a gun causes the bullet to spin and improves distance
and acuracy... Would flute rifling start the column of air spining?

Let me first say, "Good on ya" to Casey for stepping in and clarifying his thoughts on instrument making.

With regards to your Questions fearfaoin: Yup, I've listened to the instruments in question, and many others. So, I am not shooting from the hip, so to speak, and simply positing an opinion based solely on speculation. Rather, I'm working off the experience of having been exposed to the before and after comparisons of hundreds of new and used instruments. That is to say, having listened to these instruments both before, and immediately after polishing the bore.

Based on that experience, my observation is that in nearly all cases, polishing the bore results in improved articulation/responsiveness as well as increased tonal clarity and "range", or "flexibility", by that I mean an instrument that is more capable of sounding both reedy, and clear, depending on how one plays it.

By contrast, rough bores tend to produce an instrument that is much more "one dimensional" tonally, and less responsive overall.

I can't ever recall polishing a bore (also referred to as "scouring") and having the instrument's sound deteriorate, although certainly there have been a minority of cases (IME) where polishing caused no noticable improvement, but again, I've found this quite rare.

On the flip side, the positive effects of bore polishing can be quite surprising - one minute the instrument sounds a bit stuffy, slow to respond, and dull tonally - generally rather lifeless, and then a few minutes later after polishing, that same instrument has a very cracking, lively tone and response.

So, it's really the hundreds of these direct before and after experiences that have convinced me of the value of a smooth bore, and not some purely idealistic musings on my part, if you see what I mean. I can certainly understand why flute owners without this experience would say "well, my flute sounds fine, even though the bore isn't glass smooth", however, I'd have to say that you don't know how your flute would if the bore were smooth.

Also, it's fair to say that "smooth" is somewhat relative, depending on the type of wood, and a few other variables, and visibly "Glass smooth" isn't always possible or practical, at least not without sealing pores and such, which can add significantly to the price. However, this is all good information for the consumer to have and think about, IMO.

One final thought: I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating: Attention to all the little "details" is what makes the difference between an average or sub-par instrument, and a great one, and I'm not talking about appearance. If you look at the instruments (in our case flutes) that are considered very top of the stack, by really fine players, you will see they all have this attention to detail in common: Smooth bores, well finished tone holes and embouchure, concentric and well fitting joints, etc. I know it can be difficult,or even counterintuitive to imagine some of these apparently "little" things can combine to make a significant difference, but they do.

Hope this helps.

Loren

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Thu May 25, 2006 8:19 am

On the whole "rough bore - plays well" issue, to what degree does a film of condensation change or improve the playing characteristics? Is this phenomenon real? How does the texture of the bore interact with it?

fearfaoin · Post by **fearfaoin** » Thu May 25, 2006 8:26 am

Loren wrote:I am not shooting from the hip...

I knew that, which is why I asked your opinion, which I respect.

Loren wrote:By contrast, rough bores tend to produce an instrument that is much more "one dimension" tonally, and less responsive overall.

Facinating, thanks!

Craig Stuntz · Post by **Craig Stuntz** » Thu May 25, 2006 9:53 am

Casey Burns wrote:Sometime this year I plan to make a boxwood flute with some small diameter branch wood I have - the thing with still have its bark on, literally. I am planning to send this one around the world as my "Ambassador Flute" finally - and require everyone who tries it out to carefully carve their initials into it! Stay tuned.....

Wow, that is one of the coolest things I've read in a while.

-Craig

Chiff and Fipple Forums

Shocking bore

Source of Friction