Poetry: The last chance

[djm]

Obviously the guy is suicidal. Such an air of melancholy hangs over all the mundane things he lists, as if it were a routine. I'm afraid I don't understand what sort of a boost you get wallowing in this sort of self-inflicted misery.

djm

[Nanohedron]

I think that you can't really translate poetry. It can be rendered in another language, and if it's good stuff already (and the rendering a good one), its fundamental power won't be lost. What stands to be lost, though, are the subtleties the poet might have crafted into a composition: original alliteration, compression, puns, rhyme, if any; things like that.

[fearfaoin]

What I like about this poetry business is the how simple words become like a fulcrum for the poet to shift meaning from the ordinary to the extraordinary.

In the computing world, we call this "operator overloading"

[Jack]

I think that you can't really translate poetry.

I tried that, too. For example, I tried translating some Sylvia Plath poetry into German. She talks about her German Nazi father in the middle of an English-language poem. She just switches to German, and the effect is very strongly felt. I was trying to translate that feeling into German but I gave up because it's impossible to switch to German to get the feeling of a Nazi father when you're already writing in German. You can't just do the "reverse" and switch into English because then the connection to WHY she switched to German would be completely lost.

Obviously the guy is suicidal. Such an air of melancholy hangs over all the mundane things he lists, as if it were a routine. I'm afraid I don't understand what sort of a boost you get wallowing in this sort of self-inflicted misery.

djm

It makes sense that if you like to help people, you'd get a boost from reading dark and mundane things, because it would make you want to help. So reading dark and horrible things doesn't mean you're sick or twisted, just that you like to help people.

[Nanohedron]

I think that you can't really translate poetry.

I tried that, too.

I haven't really tried. It's an observation. Japanese poetry really takes a hit when you try to give a sense of it in English, for example.

And "Emperess of Duddlesworth"? It's "Baroness" to you, dear.

For example, I tried translating some Sylvia Plath poetry into German. She talks about her German Nazi father in the middle of an English-language poem. She just switches to German, and the effect is very strongly felt. I was trying to translate that feeling into German but I gave up because it's impossible to switch to German to get the feeling of a Nazi father when you're already writing in German. You can't just do the "reverse" and switch into English because then the connection to WHY she switched to German would be completely lost.

So, if I understand you, you were trying to translate German into German? Very gnarly.

[Dale]

I think that you can't really translate poetry. It can be rendered in another language

Well put. I've read a lot--and I mean a lot --of poetry translated from Japanese and from Chinese. I'm sure I have mentioned this before, but I have a book of haiku which often includes more than one translation (by different translators). It is astonishing how different they can be.

And, of course, what is true of the translation of poetry is certainly true of the translation of ancient writings in, say, Greek and Hebrew, if you get my drift.

Oops. I may have just destined this thread to the Politics/Controversy forum.

[Jack]

I think that you can't really translate poetry. It can be rendered in another language

Well put. I've read a lot--and I mean a lot --of poetry translated from Japanese and from Chinese. I'm sure I have mentioned this before, but I have a book of haiku which often includes more than one translation (by different translators). It is astonishing how different they can be.

And, of course, what is true of the translation of poetry is certainly true of the translation of ancient writings in, say, Greek and Hebrew, if you get my drift.

Oops. I may have just destined this thread to the Politics/Controversy forum.

Don't forget Arabic.

This is why there are no translations of the Holy Qu'ran. Muslims insist on calling non-Arabic versions "interpretations" because the form of Arabic used in the Qu'ran is considered to be a holy form and given directly from God.

[Nanohedron]

The Qur'an is also highly poetic, and there are layers of meaning that get lost outside of the Arabic. It was one of the examples I had in mind.

[Montana]

And, of course, what is true of the translation of poetry is certainly true of the translation of ancient writings in, say, Greek and Hebrew, if you get my drift.

Whatever could you possibly be drifting into?
Are you saying you can't take such translations literally? (where's the smiley with the halo?)

Edited to say: Wow, everyone jumped on Dale's comment fast...

[jsluder]

Edited to say: Wow, everyone jumped on Dale's comment fast...

While their post counts might make you believe otherwise, Cran and Nano aren't "everyone".

Oh, and Shakespeare can be truly appreciated only when performed in the original Klingon.

[Nanohedron]

And, of course, what is true of the translation of poetry is certainly true of the translation of ancient writings in, say, Greek and Hebrew, if you get my drift.

Whatever could you possibly be drifting into?
Are you saying you can't take such translations literally? (where's the smiley with the halo?)

Edited to say: Wow, everyone jumped on Dale's comment fast...

Actually, they jumped on mine. Get with the program, Montana.

[Jack]

While their post counts might make you believe otherwise, Cran and Nano aren't "everyone".

Yes we am.

[Cynth]

I don't know anything about poetry obviously. What kind of poem would the second poem be called? Can someone say something about what makes it a poem? I guess like how it's built and if it is following some rules? Are the stresses on the words in a pattern? This has nothing to do with the beauty question, but I am just wondering what someone could say about these questions.

Others can (and will, I hope) give you some learned and informed and authoritative answers to your questions. I’ll just make a clumsy stab at it until they come along. First, your “what kind” question: I’d say it falls into the very broad category of free verse; 13 lines, with no particular formal pattern of meter or rhyme scheme...at least that came through into this English translation (the fact that it’s a translation makes that analysis a bit risky, though, so I could be totally wrong, there).

As for what makes it a poem...well. I just made a sincere effort to try to answer that... then had to delete about half a page of pompous nonsense. This reminds me of music discussions, like those on this board: You can read and write and talk about music, and debate and analyze and dissect it; but all that has limited meaning in isolation, detached from the music itself. It’s the same with a poem. To answer your question, I have to go beyond structure. Part of what makes it a poem is its visible structure, yes. And its rhythm--best appreciated with reading it aloud, of course. But more important (to me, anyway) is its intent: The attempt to distill emotions or ideas into intensely concentrated language with layers of meaning.

As important as intent is imagery--that's not unique to poetry, true, but good poetry takes imagery to its highest level, and everything that doesn't serve that intent is pared away. Pessoa doesn’t just say, “Boy, I’m really content tonight; life sure seems sweet sometimes.” To evoke the desired feeling or understanding in the reader, he sketches the scene with mundane details described in ordinary language: the lamp, the goodnight wishes to friends, the view through the window as evening falls. It’s left for the reader to complete the picture in his mind. Poetry lives in that place where the poet’s words and the reader’s imagination meet. (And yeah, if that meeting doesn’t happen...you don’t like poetry, I suppose).

What I get from this poem is a picture of a man at peace; his quiet acceptance of his world, his place in it, the people around him; the beauty he sees in small things...but there’s more to it than just that: by the end of the poem I have traveled in imagination with him, in a slow, almost dreamy way, as his contentment and gentle vision of life well up and out...far beyond the cozy little lamp-lit room.

Hmmph. Half a page of nonsense again. Well, I tried.

Thank you very much, scottie, for going to this effort. I was trying to figure out if I was reading the poem the way other people were. I knew I was probably missing some aspects of it but I didn't think I could just go look up "Poetry" and get the answers on my own. I didn't think what you said was nonsense at all. It was a very nice job of helping a total beginner.

Good Stab, Cynth. I for one liked the second one much more. It captures a mood I've thought about trying to capture, but never really even attempted because it is so tenuous.

What makes it poetry? Just CALLING it poetry is the frame around the artwork. These spam emails have curious list of words in them, which can be strangely hypnotic. They aren't poetry until someone calls them so - like those Objets Trouvées d'Art which were popular in the 1960s.

It is a moot point. Is it poetry or isn't it? I'm inclined to the view that if even one person (say, the author's Mother) says they think it's poetry it IS poetry, and worthy of the name. I'd apply the same criterion to Art, or questionable groupings of music. (But that's a topic for the contentious forum.)

Of course if a LOT of experienced people say it is poetry, and good poetry, then that carries more weight than the author's Mother, who might not be impartial.

I.B., I think you mean "Good Stab, scottielvr". Cynth is me, the one who doesn't know anything . I also appreciate your comments which helped me think about what I was reading.

Obviously the guy is suicidal. Such an air of melancholy hangs over all the mundane things he lists, as if it were a routine. I'm afraid I don't understand what sort of a boost you get wallowing in this sort of self-inflicted misery.

djm

djm, we had a really different take on the state of mind of the person writing the poem. It seemed to me as scottie described, that this was a person whose mind was at peace---no matter what the weather, sunny, rainy, stormy, the outside things---his mind was at peace with life. Anxiety was gone. He seemed happy, he hoped this state would last. I know this is a crude description.

Strangely though, the poem makes me feel the way you describe the poet as feeling. What he is describing is a state of mind which seems ideal but not one available to me, so it makes me sad.

But see, you did have a reaction to the poem. Now that is something to think about. Just like I've been thinking about my reaction. Don't worry, I'm not accusing you of liking it but still something did happen.

[Bloomfield]

This is why there are no translations of the Holy Qu'ran. Muslims insist on calling non-Arabic versions "interpretations" because the form of Arabic used in the Qu'ran is considered to be a holy form and given directly from God.

You should check out the legend of the Septuagint (if you don't know it already), which is all about translating words given directly from god. Cool story. (You'll want the [forged] letter of Aristea.)

[leremarkable]

I Just love;

"life flowing over me like a stream flowing over its bed"

LeR