The Dark Side, Luke ...

[johnkerr]

Indeed John, it's much ado about nothing. Simply pick-up the flute and practice.

But only if you're spending at least as much time trying to perfect your lip positioning as your average Elvis impersonater would.

[Loren]

I know I have been very lucky Loren, and I am positive that my exposure to the musicians here has gone a long way in shaping me into the player that I am today, and yes I was young when I started, and found out very quickly that I had a serious liking for playing the flute. Had I to do it now, it would be quite different, I wouldnt have the patience!!
But it is possible to improve your tone without those factors as I know you could advise us Loren! It just is that little bit more difficult and takes that little bit longer to get where you are going.

A bit longer indeed, an understatement! "Must focus on the journey, not the destination. Must focus on the journey, not the destination. Must focus on the journey, not the destination......." Or so I keep trying to tell myself

Sure, I can say from my own experience that it's possible to improve one's tone from "Terrible" to merely "Lame" without being surrounded by really good players.

However, now that I've relocated to an area where there are a few really fine players, and I've heard the likes of Peter Molloy blasting away at 5 ft. in front of my nose, I have a much better perspective on tone and volume, and so, have an entirely different level to work towards. Still, I can hardly imagine having so many fine players around - but can certainly see how one would be highly motivated to practice in such an environment.

Right then, a good reminder that it's time to pick up the stick and get back to work, haven't had my much needed 2 hours yet today. (Is this more or less than the average Elvis Impersonator John? I feel the need to keep up with the Elvises)

Loren

[peeplj]

Right then, a good reminder that it's time to pick up the stick and get back to work, haven't had my much needed 2 hours yet today. (Is this more or less than the average Elvis Impersonator John? I feel the need to keep up with the Elvises)

It would be outstanding to be able to get even a solid hour in a day!

I get maybe a half-hour a day, very broken up through the day...and not even that, every day.

"There's never enough time to do the things you want to do, once you find 'em...." (I think Jim Croce said that, and boy is it ever true!!!)

--James

[MikeC]

"There's never enough time to do the things you want to do, once you find 'em...." (I think Jim Croce said that, and boy is it ever true!!!)

--James[/quote]

We have a saying in the construction field,"There never seems to be enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it again."

[Markus]

Although it isn't visible in the photo, we can add Hammy Hamilton to the list of players who turn the headjoint in remarkably. During the Flute Meeting I had the opportunity to ask how come his flutes "go up to 11" (see Spinal Tap the Movie) as opposed to many good ones that don't and he explained that he makes the instruments based on his own style of blowing. He tends to blow hard and roll the head in and designs his embouchures for this type of approach. My estimate, having seen it from close would be that he has the head rolled in as much as about a third or so..

[Jayhawk]

Maire - I roll the headjoint in so it's far edge is about in the middle of the tone holes - so I'd call it a slight roll in. But I do play with the tone holes straight up as that's easier on my fingers and wrists.

My thought is even if the embouchure and tone holes are centered on each other, the grip may lead to a slight angle that would lead to blowing more into than across the embouchure hole.

So even folks who don't roll in the headjoint may be doing the same thing as folks who do...if that makes any sense.

Eric

[johnkerr]

So even folks who don't roll in the headjoint may be doing the same thing as folks who do...if that makes any sense.

If it does make any sense, then it goes to reinforce the point I was getting at earlier: It matters not whether you roll in or not. What matters is what happens where the rubber meets the road...er, where the lip meets the hole. Somehow that never enters into the discussion much, if at all. I wonder why? Maybe the same reason folks talk cars and not tires...

[Jayhawk]

John - I absolutely agree with you that the most important thing is how you sound when you play.

I was simply answering Maire's question from a few pages back - which was an answer to a question I asked her a few pages before that. Seems curteous to respond when asked, and I appreciated Maire's answer to my question.

I find value in threads like this - sometimes I try something I've not tried before, or maybe try something I tried in the past when my development wasn't ready for it.

Eric

[malanstevenson]

Loren wrote:

Hmmm, interesting but.....Take a look at this photo from the recent flute gathering: http://faculty.weber.edu/mstevenson1/Fl ... uctors.JPG


That's Conal on the viewer's left, holding the Cocus flute, right? Copy the photo and use MS viewer, or photoshop, or whatever to zoom in on Conal's flute. It appears, quite clearly, to have the head joint turned in substantially - with the embouchure top edge about in line with the center of the tone holes. Harry's flute, as well, the best I can tell, also appears to have the HJ rolled in, although we'll have to leave it to him to confirm or deny.

In fairness, that shot was taken after someone hauled all the instructors back to the stage for a group shot, so Conal might have already disassembled his flute, and just threw it back together for the photo (Harry hadn't even played - this was after Conal's recital - and put his together just for the pic).

<slaps forehead> I didn't think to examine the headjoint position while Conal (or Harry, for that matter) were playing, but I did take some video, will have to check those later on. The more I realize how much work a consistent embouchure takes, the more I despair of being able to maintain any kind of standard on the flute AND the pipes. Serving two mistresses well (not to mention the other three I live with) is not something a guy my age can manage easily without multivitamins and a few extra hours in the day, but I'm compelled to keep trying...


Mark

[Loren]

If it does make any sense, then it goes to reinforce the point I was getting at earlier: It matters not whether you roll in or not. What matters is what happens where the rubber meets the road...er, where the lip meets the hole. Somehow that never enters into the discussion much, if at all. I wonder why? Maybe the same reason folks talk cars and not tires...

Really, John? I posted the following a couple of pages back, about a half dozen posts before you got on the subject:

"At any rate, clearly Harry and the like could play a flute better than most of us regardless of how the HJ was positioned, and I suspect you'll get no arguments from any corners on that. Certainly the rotation, or lack of, with regards to the HJ won't make the player, I do believe it's more a matter of ergonomics than anything else (amount of HJ rotation), as the way you blow (breath support, embouchure shape and size), and where your lips line up (front to back and side to side with relation to the embouchure hole), determine the tone. Well, all of that and lots of practice, and exposure to really fine players."

Sounds like the same thing you're saying, but I must be wrong!

I'm a PZero man myself, although they don't hold up for for spit on the autocross track, however I was never willing to haul around a spare set of track tires and wheels just for a half dozen runs or so in a day.

Loren

[Terry McGee]

Now we've covered a lot of ground in the discussions above - turning in or not, who turns in and who doesn't, etc etc, but we haven't much focussed on the actual topic! So let me rephrase the question:

Do people find that the direction in which one blows the jet (across the hole towards the edge or down towards the centre of the flute) influences the darkness of the tone they get? (Try out the exercise I suggested to see if you can achieve "nice" and "dark" tones at will.)

Secondly, does the exercise have anything to offer the neophyte struggling to produce an "Irish" flute tone in the Nevada desert, or Mawson Antarctic Base, or anywhere else devoid of flute life?

For your convenience, here's the exercise again:

Step One - discover the difference. Play a "nice" low octave G note, aiming the jet of air at the far edge of the hole. Now play a dark version of the same note, by protruding the upper lip (or withdrawing the lower lip, or doing both) to cover more of the hole, and to direct the airstream downwards, and by increasing the airflow. You should feel as if you were trying to blow a fly off your chin, or blow the jet into the centre of the flute rather than the edge. You should hear the note go hard and dark.

(Interesting to watch the spectrum of the note on an FFT spectrum analyser while doing this - you'll see increased content in the 2nd, 3rd and higher harmonics. The Autotuner incorporates an FFT unit and is free to download - see my Resources for Irish Flute players page for details).

Step Two - Increase the difference. Now alternate the two notes, "nice" and "dark", pushing the dark one harder and harder (both in terms of depression of the jet towards the floor and in increased airflow), until you are really impressed with the two differing sounds you can make. The "dark" sound should sound like tearing roofing iron compared to the cooing-of-doves "nice" sound. (Note - you may never wish to use the cooing-of-doves "nice" sound, but it has an important purpose here - to provide a reference from which you are trying to get away.)

Step Three - Increase the range. Now play up and down the low octave - firstly a few notes, then the whole octave - in both "nice" and "dark" modes. Keep pushing the "dark" darker.

Step four - Try some music. Nothing fast - we're working on tone here, not dexterity. If you play fast music, you won't have time to make the little adjustments needed to optimise each note. And you wont have time to evaluate the tone colour of each note. A song tune, an air, something with long notes, or just noodle. Use both modes ("nice" and "dark") to confirm your progress.

Step Five - Real Life. Try some dance music now, and see if this exercise has helped darken up your tone. Again use both modes to explore the difference.

Terry

[Jumbuk]

Thanks for posting this Terry - as a newbie still "fishing" for the tone, it helped reiterate some of the things I have been working on.

For me, the word "dark" is not appropriate. I associate "dark" with sounds lacking in higher harmonics. I guess words are pretty useless when it comes to describing tone, but "hard" comes closer. For me, it's that solid feel that comes with a low D that is pushed hard until it is about to pop up to the octave.

I found the exercise interesting in comparison to playing "meri" notes on a shakuhachi. On the shak, you develop an almost palpable feel for the air stream between the utugachi (blowing edge) and your lip. "Meri" is the technique to flatten a note (up to two semitones or thereabouts) by closing more of the blowing end (moving your lips closer to the blowing edge). This is similar to what happens with the crossblown flute as you get closer to the edge of the embouchure hole - the note goes flatter, and has fewer upper harmonics if you go too far. Incidentally, I practiced Meri on beer bottles - the shak technique of blowing across the far side of the open top works better than blowing across the near side like I used to do before playing the shak. You can Meri about 3 semitones on a standard "stubby" bottle (Australian readers might also note that I can get an octave harmonic on an empty Crown Lager stubby, but not on any others).

PS At a concert last year, I saw Terry playing a couple of tunes with a harpist. He bent notes by rolling the flute during a note - nice effect.

[peeplj]

For me, the word "dark" is not appropriate. I associate "dark" with sounds lacking in higher harmonics. I guess words are pretty useless when it comes to describing tone, but "hard" comes closer. For me, it's that solid feel that comes with a low D that is pushed hard until it is about to pop up to the octave.

I agree this is a confusing choice of terms; when someone talks about a "dark sound," I tend to associate this with a very pure tone lacking in harmonics; conversely, a "bright sound" is rich in harmonics. This is a leftover from my music major days, when I would have called the Boehm flute "dark" and the oboe "bright."

But as we gotta call it something, I guess "dark" is as good a word as any.

--James

[treesong]

Do people find that the direction in which one blows the jet (across the hole towards the edge or down towards the centre of the flute) influences the darkness of the tone they get? (Try out the exercise I suggested to see if you can achieve "nice" and "dark" tones at will.)

Secondly, does the exercise have anything to offer the neophyte struggling to produce an "Irish" flute tone in the Nevada desert, or Mawson Antarctic Base, or anywhere else devoid of flute life?

Terry

First off Terry, thanks for the great thread.

As a total flute newbie, I have spent much of my practice time experimenting and evaluating with my embouchure. Not only where, but how to direct my air stream. Generally when I visualize and attempt blowing across the embouchure hole, it instantly goes into the second octave. I do change the location of the air stream and am amazed at the spectrum of sounds produced. Once I said to my husband listen how different I can make my flute sound, to which he of course replied it sounded exactly the same to him! Heathen!

For the second question, as Gary Kelly mentioned earlier, when I first listened to WFO, I was struck by the huge variety between the tone of the players. I'm not sure when listening to a specific player if they sound more Irish or not, but I do generally know if it is a tone I like.

I have found this type of exercise to be one of the most helpful in altering and experimenting with my tone, however as evidenced by this thread, there are always more avenues to explore.

[maire]

This wee discussion has been a blast for a few reasons.
As a flute player, I never think about the finer points of position and such like, simply because I am ususally more concerned about the tunes and how they sound. The time has long gone when I had to sit down and dissect the flute, so I suppose I never think about it any more!
How ever, now I am and it is causing me all sorts of head aches!
Yesterday while doing a gig I found myself concentrating on my tone and blowing and the more I thought about it the worst it got!
This leads me to the conclusion that in order to maintain a constant powerful tone, it needs to be a well learnt sub-conscious thing, as two people very clearly pointed out.
So disregard any of my earlier waffling John Kerr and Loren have got it right. It really is every thing to do with your facial muscles and not the position of the head joint.
Therefore the lesson I got from this is that, when someone is learning to play, messing around with the head joint could definately be detrimental to consistancy of playing. Which must be the reason that we were always told to stick to the one position and not change it even though no-one ever explained to me why in certain terms.
Very interesting!