The Dark Side, Luke ...

[GaryKelly]

I hadn't played in a few weeks until yesterday, and found that my embouchure seemed to be gone. <snippage>

This morning I followed Terry's advice and was thoroughly enjoying the tone... But I don't know whether it was both or just one of the two variables that caused it. Hmph.

I'd suspect the first bit ("I hadn't played in a few weeks") but it wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on the flute/oiling just in case, especially if you're going to leave it for a prolonged period.

[Ro3b]

I dunno... I feel like the better my tone has gotten over the years, the less good I am at describing how I get there. Last night I was loving the sound I was getting at our session. Damned if I can describe what I was doing differently. Other than, um, well, the embouchure hole was lined up with the center of my lips. And I was really relaxed. And I was playing loud with good breath support, sitting up straight, and not thinking about any of this.

[doogieman]

"sound like tearing roofing iron"

I love THAT description!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[monkey587]

I hadn't played in a few weeks until yesterday, and found that my embouchure seemed to be gone. <snippage>

This morning I followed Terry's advice and was thoroughly enjoying the tone... But I don't know whether it was both or just one of the two variables that caused it. Hmph.

I'd suspect the first bit ("I hadn't played in a few weeks") but it wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on the flute/oiling just in case, especially if you're going to leave it for a prolonged period.

Well, that's what I'd expect, but it was different than my other periods of sparse practice. everything felt right and the condensation on the far end of the embouchure hole looked good, but perhaps the angle was wrong or something.

But basically... It sounded very different than it had ever sounded before. It kinda sounded like it would explode if played any 'harder,' but it wasn't fuzzy at all. I liked it.

[Wormdiet]

EDIT:

Removed in the interests of preserving the forum from snarkiness.

carry on.

Spoilsport!




The gist of it was that
a) I will continue to use poetic/subjective language because it's America, darnit, and that's my God-Given right! I can't wait to review my upcoming Mack Truck w/Porsche Suspension whenever it arrives.

and

b) I do find some specific recipes for posture, embouchure, etc. to really help.

On a related note, does anybody find that playing when super-duper tired leads to arm soreness later on? My top arm is absolutely killing today, and I think's it's because I went to a session on 4.5 hours sleep. Or maybe it's dehydration. anyhoo. . .

[fearfaoin]

a) I will continue to use poetic/subjective language because it's America, darnit

Not in Gary's hemisphere it ain't!

On a related note, does anybody find that playing when super-duper tired leads to arm soreness later on?

No, but I do find that lifting weights just before a lesson can lead to
very poor flute position!

[johnkerr]

Last night I was loving the sound I was getting at our session. Damned if I can describe what I was doing differently.

Well, I was sitting directly across from Rob at the session last night, and I know exactly what he was doing. He was getting it ON.

No, wait. That's what he was doing when he was playing the accordion. Never mind.

Now me, I hated the sound I was getting last night. I don't know what I was doing differently either, but I imagine it may have been because somewhere Grey Larsen was burning me in effigy after reading what I wrote about his book on Chiff and Fipple...

[Wormdiet]

a) I will continue to use poetic/subjective language because it's America, darnit

Not in Gary's hemisphere it ain't!

pshawww. . . that's no fun. England is now on the Axis of Evil, so does it really matter anyway?

No, but I do find that lifting weights just before a lesson can lead to
very poor flute position!

I TOLD you those 'roids were a bad idea!

[Terry McGee]

Very interesting and informative thread, and a new exercise to refine my embouchure control.

Despite much trying, I still get far better results from the rounded rectangle than the elliptical. Boehm reported the same result, so it might be a lip or other facial feature thing. Boehm of course was interested in the "nice" tone, while I'm interested in the "dark". The ratio of "nice" to "dark" seems broadly the same on the different embouchures.

Terry, have you tried this with different flute styles with the same or similar embouchures? If so, how much difference do you see between them? For instance, a GLP (still loving mine, thank you very much) vs. a Prattens. I realize that there's a world of difference between the two, but I'd be interested to know how the "dark side" test works on them.

Works the same on GLP's and Prattens and all stages in between. Works on elliptical to rounded rectangle embouchures, and indeed it even works on Boehm flutes, which is something I should have mentioned - if you want to make your Boehm sound more like an Irish flute, this is probably the best way.

(It even obeys acoustic theory, although I think some aerodynamic theory might be needed to explain some of the results. Acoustic theory would predict the darkening effect of covering more of the hole, but not, I suspect, the additional hardening you get from blowing towards the centre of the flute. I'll be taking this up with the authorities later this month.)

It doesn't disguise the essential differences between the styles of flute though - a Prattens still has that big-bore sound, the GLP the lighter sound. They all just sound darker, harder, less "nice", more Irish.

I guess I should also have mentioned that the note that benefits most is the low D - it gives it that hard focussed sound that makes it stand out in tunes like the Gold Ring, rather than recede into furry fog.

Terry

[GaryKelly]

a) I will continue to use poetic/subjective language because it's America, darnit

Not in Gary's hemisphere it ain't!

pshawww. . . that's no fun. England is now on the Axis of Evil, so does it really matter anyway?

OMG we're on the Axis of Evil? I thought we were on the Axis of Nearly-But-Not-Quite-So-Evil?

We had local elections last night, I'm keeping my fingies crossed that my town council hasn't changed our name to Swindonistan else we're really in the poop!

Nope, haven't noticed a correlation between playing whilst tired and subsequent arm soreness later on.

What I have noticed is how the room I'm playing in seems to affect my tone remarkably. It probably actually doesn't, but it certainly affects what I *hear* myself playing, and that can really throw the ear-brain-lips feedback loop.

The ears are really super-critical to flute playing, I think. As a matter of interest, do we have any deaf or hard of hearing players? Has anyone noticed that playing with a cold (when yer ears are bunged up) sounds particularly awful?

A while ago I burned an audio CD containing nothing but white noise, and had that cranking into a set of headphones during practice. I adjusted the volume of the noise in the cans until I could just barely hear the sound of the flute. I then recorded what I was playing, trying to 'trust' that everything was going okay. Gs when I played that recording back it was awful! (It had more awfulitudiness than usual, that is).

[maire]

I'm finding this discussion confusing.
The first thing I was taught was to keep the embrochure and the finger holes in alignment. Definately not to turn the head joint, and to roll the flute for the purposes of tuning only.
So when you are saying to turn the head joint in, does that mean that you will physically twist the part round, or that you are rolling the flute towards or away from yourself?

[GaryKelly]

So when you are saying to turn the head joint in, does that mean that you will physically twist the part round, or that you are rolling the flute towards or away from yourself?

The first... you rotate the headjoint with respect to the flute body, so that, for example, if your flute were laying on a table with the tone-holes pointing straight up, the embouchure hole would be pointing more towards you instead of pointing straight up. That's "rolling in."

'Rolling out' is the reverse, where the tone-holes would be pointing straight up, the embouchure hole would be pointing more away from you.

Rolling in flattens the tone, rolling out sharpens it, so if you play rolled in or rolled out, you also need to adjust the tuning slide to compensate.

The idea is that you keep your hands and fingers in a comfortable playing position, but adjust the headjoint with respect to your lips, so your playing is comfortable. Some people might find having the tone-holes and embouchure perfectly in line gives them the tone they want and is also comfortable... I'm not one of them, playing with the flute assembled like that would hurt my left hand after a while.

[maire]

Ok I get what you are all talking about now.
I'm afraid that I have to strongly disagree with that technique.
The best way to get a strong tone on a quality flute (and maintain consistant tuning) is by NOT turning the head joint.
Any flute mentor I ever had played the flute in alignment.
Feel free to disagree, but I certainly have never taught any one to play the flute by altering the head joint. Quite the opposite in fact. Isnt it strange how things differ from region to region?

[Terry McGee]

I'm finding this discussion confusing.
The first thing I was taught was to keep the embrochure and the finger holes in alignment. Definately not to turn the head joint, and to roll the flute for the purposes of tuning only.
So when you are saying to turn the head joint in, does that mean that you will physically twist the part round, or that you are rolling the flute towards or away from yourself?

Keeping the finger holes and embouchure holes in line was certainly a cornerstone of modern classical music training, and probably still is. It encourages blowing across the embouchure, rather than down into it, which tends to give a bright, easily controlled tone, rather than the dark, intense tone we are used to in Irish music.

Way back in the 19th century, quite a different approach gave quite a different tone. The head was rotated back so that typically the far edge of the embouchure rather than its centre lined up with the centres of the finger holes. Players blew downwards, towards the centre of the flute, rather than across. This gave them less flexibility, but a dark intense tone.

My advice is to regard the head and the various parts of the body as fulfilling separate functions, and to set each part in place to suit that function. Turn the embouchure in to facilitate the "dark" tone I talked about at the beginning. Rotate the left hand section to make those fingers most comfortable, and the right hand and foot to give those fingers best flexibility. The most famous flute player that ever lived, Charles Nicholson, has left us at least two examples of how he set up his flute, and you'll find them staggering. You can see my account of it at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Nicholson%27s%20Flute.htm.

Terry

[Ro3b]

My advice is to regard the head and the various parts of the body as fulfilling separate functions, and to set each part in place to suit that function.

I agree. I started turning my headjoint because it actually puts my hands in a more comfortable position, relative to where the embouchure hole needs to be for my best tone. So I don't roll the headjoint in as much as roll the rest of the flute out.

I have noticed that most players whose tone I've admired don't turn the headjoint in, though. Chris Norman being the one exception I can think of.