An honest, semi-hostile question.

[Chiffed]

Instruments seem to work on some sort of geometric price scale, but it can be quantized a bit:
1. Junk instruments at junk prices. McChudds (or VanderChudds?) .
2. Passable student instruments for a bit more dough. Rental grade.
3. Step-up instruments at twice the price, still high-production factory models.
4. 'Intermediate' for another 30-50% more money. Some hand work, and some options. If your local orchestra used these, only Pierre Boulez could tell the difference.
5. Pro instruments at 4-8 times the price of a good student axe.
6. Low production. These are only partly made from unobtainium, so you'll only have to sell the Honda.
7. Super-de-Duper-a-la-Peter-T-Hooper. One-offs by the best craftsmen, custom made in unobtainium to fit you. Most folks won't hear the difference between these and Intermediates, but your banker will know. 50-150 times the price of a student instrument.

So if a Meg is $3.50 and an Abell is $350, this fits. A Dixon clarinet is $300, a pro Buffet is $4500, and handmades go up to $15000.

Boehm flutes fit the scheme, but they just seem to go up forever. Simple system flutes seem much more reasonable.

Does this fit with others' impression of prices?

[Loren]

Yeah, it's hard to argue with the product, and to be fair, making a really fine recorder is much more time intensive than making a really fine whistle, as I'm sure you know Paul. Broaching the windway, making the blocks out of planks (the blocks are tapered and can't simply be turned on a lathe), then the blocks have to be hand filed,scraped, and sanded to fit. Then the top of the block filed and sanded down and shaped (concave) and visually voiced, and so on.......

All this in addition to far more sanding, oiling, and buffing, than any whistle sees. And don't even get me started on the ones we put Ivory or Imitation Ivory head, foot and socket sleeves on! First the instrument gets completely final turned, decorative rings and all, and then the head, sockets, and foot get turned round again before the sleeves are made, mounted, and then those parts have to be turned to final spec AGAIN! Man, there's nothing like the feeling of turning a really nicely done instrument, and then having to destroy half the work and start over...... Fortunately, we'd usually pick instruments that had a defect in the wood on the head, foot or socket, and use those for this sort of thing.

Damn. I wrote a post earlier, which I didn't send in, in which I said something to the effect, "They sell a REALLY fine traverso with extra middle joint for $1500, but the recorders go for that much or even twice as much, even for a soprano or alto. I can't imagine that a recorder takes much more labor than a one-key flute, but of course I could be wrong." I guess I am wrong; I had no idea so much labor went into the windway.

But do market forces have a lot to do with the relative prices of the vH recorders vs. flutes? I would think the market for high-end recorders is somewhat greater than that for high-end traversos; dunno about how many makers there are relatively.

Hmm, in re-reading the reply I posted to this last night, I think I wasn't very clear at all - which is what I get for posting way past my bed time I sort of answered the bit about recorders being more difficult and time consuming, but not the issue of Market Forces, so let me try again:

Market forces do have some impact, but with regards to recorder vs. traverso prices, it's really a complicated issue I think. A high quality handmade recorder is more expensive to produce - more man hours involved, and it's not just the windway and block, the ramps and labium are hand carved as well, the mouthpiece has to be cut-off, shaped and sanded etc. Heck, think about the basic sanding of the head and feet of recorders - it takes a lot more time and effort to sand over, under, and around, all those decorative rings turned into the bodies of recorders - have another look at the photo I posted, now imagine having to sand each and everyone of those with 3-4 grades of sand paper, while working over and around all the detaill turning, and not chipping or breaking any of that stuff. Also, with the feet, the bell must be wet, and then let dry, between each sanding. And so on.

Still, a one keyed flute does have, well, the key, the key block, sometimes a hidden, sliding foot register, and the endcap, but it doesn't quite balance out time wise, at least not the way they do things at VH. Particularly if you were to compare the a one or two key recorder to a one key flute.

Anyway, back to the market forces.......I don't know how may traverso makers are out there exactly. At the last BEMF (Boston Early Music Festival) there seemed to be nearly as many traverso makers as recorder makers, in terms of exhibitors, but I don't know that this is representative of the overall picture, it's hard to say.

I do think that, at this point in time, VH's reputation for recorders is far stronger than it's rep for traversos, because A) they really haven't put any effort into marketing flutes for a very long time, and B) other makers have gone to a more modern tuning scale, requiring less lipping as you are no doubt are aware Charlie. So while VH recorders have gone up in price, I don't think they can get any more for most of their traversos right now.

In addition, the markets are a bit different, as recorders are still used in music school teaching programs quite a bit, and so seem more "legitimate" in some ways, which I think also drives the price of recorders a bit higher. However, I think that over time, we may see the prices of the top traversos surpass the prices of the best recorders, because recorder playing appears to be on the decline, while traverso seems to be either holding more steady, or increasing.

It's an interesting question Charlie, and I think you are correct to a large degree, that market forces have as much as anything to do with pricing, in the end. This is why I typically lament the low prices of whistles and simply system flutes, we makers are underpaid, when compared with the makers of many other sorts of musical instruments.

Now, what the heck were we talking about? I'm lost again

Loren

[Blackout_Entertainment]

Complete side question; does a forum like the C&F exist for Medieval Music enthusiasts, with forums aboute recorders, lutes, serpants, ect?

Just curious.

---

About the prices - I've seen a lot of people say that the difference between the master grade and (non-existant) intermediate instruments in nigh undetectable. I'm sorry, but If I dropped thousands of euros on a recorder, and it still sounded like a yamaha plastic recorder -- I'd be somewhat miffed. I don't care if it was fashioned from the wood of Noah's Arc; 15€000 needs to sound better than €230!



Bah. I still can't find any middle quality recorders for sale. I find websites with them, but no way to buy them.

[shadoe42]

middle quality instruments are often the hardest to locate no matter what type of instrument you play. for guitars for example to locate that perfect mix of sound/playability/price takes a lot of searching. Luckily also though there are a few gems of guitars in the lower range that don't play or sound like they cost.

whistles seem to be okay but the low end middle price range is not that far apart (10-to say 75 dollars) then the high end jumps up compartivly.

Having not played a standard flute or clarinet can't really speak to that and I haven't pickup my trumpet in ages.

[billw]

There is another approach to getting excellent instruments at intermediate prices. It's called a "pawn shop", and they're ubiquitous worldwide. Musicians are, by and large, among the people who seem to have problems hanging onto money, and when it's a choice of my art or my belly, my belly will eventually win.

Don't beat me heavily about the back and shoulders. It's true. I've seen Gibson and Martin guitars, Loray oboes, even bass clarinets put in hock and left. I don't know flutes except to make the simpler ones, but I'm sure there are some of those. I bought a silver, signed, C.G. Conn trumpet for $15 at a pawn shop. It's worth a look.

Cheers,
Bill Whedon

[Wombat]

Just to give a quick answer to the original question, take a quick look at a Boehm flute, a saxophone or a clarinet. Take note of all those keys and the moving parts required for them to function. One leaky pad and the instrument will be unplayable without attention; it's not like one dud button in a seldom visited corner of a concertina. There isn't going to be a really cheap way to produce an instrument like this that is playable and it isn't worth it to produce an instrument that is breaking down all the time. I started with a cheap guitar and worked up so quickly I wondered why I stopped at certain floors along the way. But with saxophone I got a good one straight away. I once bought a cheap soprano saxophone and it was a complete waste of money; I couldn't get it to play properly and neither could professional friends of mine. (I do have a good student model Boehm flute though.)

[Crysania]

There are plenty of intermediate clarinets. But even then you're looking to spend $1000 or so.

Top of the line clarinets are made of Grenadilla (and can cost upwards of $3000 -- cheap compared to string instruments and bassoons!). It's a very dense African blackwood that works well for the instrument. I don't know what's so obscure about it -- because whistles aren't made of it?

~Crysania

[Wombat]

There are plenty of intermediate clarinets. But even then you're looking to spend $1000 or so.

I wouldn't call $1,000 cheap. That's pretty much what I meant. Just getting something reliable is going to cost you significant money.

[Crysania]

Even the cheapest clarinet isn't "cheap" -- plastic clarinets usually run $300-400. It's all relative. Well-crafted musical instruments are usually NOT cheap and when it comes to instruments with as many keys and little intricacies as a clarinet or keyed flute, even the lowest of the low is going to be more expensive than your average high-end whistle.

On the flip side, I found a playable fiddle on eBay for $23. Now THAT was a deal!

~Crysania

[Loren]

There are plenty of intermediate clarinets. But even then you're looking to spend $1000 or so.

Top of the line clarinets are made of Grenadilla (and can cost upwards of $3000 -- cheap compared to string instruments and bassoons!). It's a very dense African blackwood that works well for the instrument. I don't know what's so obscure about it -- because whistles aren't made of it?

~Crysania

Plenty of whistles made from Grenadilla.

Loren

[Crysania]

Plenty of whistles made from Grenadilla.

Loren

Interesting. I've never seen it listed whenever I've looked.

~Crysania

[Bloomfield]

Complete side question; does a forum like the C&F exist for Medieval Music enthusiasts, with forums aboute recorders, lutes, serpants, ect?

Just curious.

---

About the prices - I've seen a lot of people say that the difference between the master grade and (non-existant) intermediate instruments in nigh undetectable. I'm sorry, but If I dropped thousands of euros on a recorder, and it still sounded like a yamaha plastic recorder -- I'd be somewhat miffed. I don't care if it was fashioned from the wood of Noah's Arc; 15€000 needs to sound better than €230!



Bah. I still can't find any middle quality recorders for sale. I find websites with them, but no way to buy them.

You should realize that many expensive "high end," or at least handcrafted whistles, exist only for the benefit of beginners who can't play cheap whistles yet. Wide bores, thick walls, improved tuning (that is, unresponsiveness to breath pressure) give a simpler, duller, rounder, "haunting" sound.

[ctilbury]

Loren,

If one were interested in getting training and/or learning the art of recorder making, where would one start? Is there a recorder making school somewere? Or do you need to find a job hauling p-buckets first?

[Chiffed]

middle quality instruments are often the hardest to locate no matter what type of instrument you play. for guitars for example to locate that perfect mix of sound/playability/price takes a lot of searching. Luckily also though there are a few gems of guitars in the lower range that don't play or sound like they cost.

whistles seem to be okay but the low end middle price range is not that far apart (10-to say 75 dollars) then the high end jumps up compartivly.

Having not played a standard flute or clarinet can't really speak to that and I haven't pickup my trumpet in ages.

This really is the hard part. In the band-instrument world, so many 'intermediate' instruments are just gussied-up chud. Maybe the price-gap in recorders is due to the high playability of plastic ones, and the enormous amount of talent and work required to better them. Just a theory.

[Chiffed]

There are plenty of intermediate clarinets. But even then you're looking to spend $1000 or so.

Top of the line clarinets are made of Grenadilla (and can cost upwards of $3000 -- cheap compared to string instruments and bassoons!). It's a very dense African blackwood that works well for the instrument. I don't know what's so obscure about it -- because whistles aren't made of it?

~Crysania

Plenty of whistles made from Grenadilla.

Loren

African Blackwood? Same stuff, I thought...