Has anyone ever busted a socket/tenon this way?

[Loren]

He gets a run around the block at least once a week, but I really need to find him some other kids to play with. Poor little feller.

Aww, poor guy: It's not his fault he's smaller than the other kids

Loren

[Loren]

I realize Mopane is probably the most recently added wood to the Irish flute market. I'm new to it as well. It seems to absorb much more moisture than blackwood even though is it supposed to be about the same density. I haven't noticed the swelling problem yet because I don't play it, yet, more than an hour.

Any experience with Mopane out there in terms of the tenon swelling?

BillG

I can't be of too much help on that one, as I'm just breaking in a Mopane Bb, and I'm finding that while I love the sound, I'll probably never play any Bb flute for more than an hour at a time: The exaggerated bent back left wrist position required aggravates some tendonitis issues for me, so I have to take it in small doses.

Loren

[Cathy Wilde]

Here's hoping you never HAVE TO play a Bb for more than an hour at a time!!!!!!!!!!

[Cathy Wilde]

He gets a run around the block at least once a week, but I really need to find him some other kids to play with. Poor little feller.

Aww, poor guy: It's not his fault he's smaller than the other kids

Loren

Actually, his size isn't so obviously out of range -- a lot of people have mistaken him for a bigger kid -- but his high voice gets him in trouble a fair amount.

[DCrom]

I've noticed my Burns FF gets noticably tighter at the joint after I've been playing a while. And that my Jon C polymer has a LOT more condensation visible after the same amount of playing time.

There may be more going on than "Mopane absorbs moisture". We generally keep our house on the cool side in winter (~64 F), so that a cold flute will condense a lot more moisture than it will once it warms up - and I've noticed that the Mopane Burns warms up much faster than the Jon C polymer. This may be nothing more than design - the Jon C is a Rudall model with a long foot and tuning slide and weighs a noticable amount more. But even when they'e both warmed up the Mopane flute seems to stay drier. And it may be imagination, but the amount of condensation seems related to how recently the flute was oiled.

However - even on weekend afternoons when I've put in 2-3 hours of playing I've never had any problem taking the flute apart - snugger, yes, but not enough tighter that I've seen any cause to worry.

[Loren]

He gets a run around the block at least once a week, but I really need to find him some other kids to play with. Poor little feller.

Aww, poor guy: It's not his fault he's smaller than the other kids

Loren

Actually, his size isn't so obviously out of range -- a lot of people have mistaken him for a bigger kid -- but his high voice gets him in trouble a fair amount.

Yeah, I hated to have to be the one to tell him that he's way past puberty and his voice isn't going to get any lower, but some things are best discussed man to man.....

Loren

[Loren]

Here's hoping you never HAVE TO play a Bb for more than an hour at a time!!!!!!!!!!

While I'm certain no one will ever WANT to hear me play a Bb flute for an hour, I'd love to be able to - the sound of Low Flutes is REALLY addictive. Don't ever borrow one Cat, you'll end having to own one. I'm now wishing I'd bought the keyed Aebi that Sylvain B. offered up a while back.....

Loren

[Chiffed]

Got one for you, Loren. Kinda.

One of the teachers at my school decided it was time to play tenor re^%$der along with the kiddies, so she took out her no-name tenor from its decade long ziploc home and spent about two hours reaquainting herself with Baroque fingerings (the kids all play German Yamahas). It got so tight that, when taking it apart, she broke the tenon. It was the brute force rather than the swelling that broke the joint.

My boxwood Ronnburg swells like crazy and has no rings, but the repaired crack in the head hasn't opened up yet. It probably will, being an old repair.

The German blackwood 4-key and 6-key (thread joints) are rock-stable at the tenons. Probably been that way for half a century.

[chas]

Just as a point of interest in these cases: It's actually the socket that is most vulnerable, rather than the tenon, as circles are much stronger when forced from the outside than they are when pressure is applied from the inside - think of how arches bear weight.

Yeah, that's why I noted that mine had metal rings. I wouldn't think the tenon could crack with a ring, but I'm sure stranger things have happened. I have (had?) an old flute with some damage to the socket, so it's definitely possible.

No one has posted on rosewood yet (honduras/honduran - whichever is correct). I had a Sweet without slide, and after playing 2-3 hours it would be tighter than at first, but I never had a problem easily pulling the two apart. It had yarn lappings, and I greased the yarn, the wood that sticks out past the thread/yarn, and I'd at times put a tiny bit of cork grease on the end grains of the tennon.

I have an old Olwell all-rosewood flute that seems to repel moisture better than just about any flute I've played (short of polymer). It absorbs no oil to speak of when I oil it, and seems to drip really fast when I play it.

[Loren]

Got one for you, Loren. Kinda.

One of the teachers at my school decided it was time to play tenor re^%$der along with the kiddies, so she took out her no-name tenor from its decade long ziploc home and spent about two hours reaquainting herself with Baroque fingerings (the kids all play German Yamahas). It got so tight that, when taking it apart, she broke the tenon. It was the brute force rather than the swelling that broke the joint.

Indeed, this I have run across in my repair work: Brute force applied to a swollen tight joint breaks the tenon.

Still though, I've yet to hear of a socket or tenon cracking during play, or after (while still assembled) unless someone attempted to disassemble. Interesting.

Thanks though, it's more good reference info to have.

Loren

[Loren]

Just as a point of interest in these cases: It's actually the socket that is most vulnerable, rather than the tenon, as circles are much stronger when forced from the outside than they are when pressure is applied from the inside - think of how arches bear weight.

Yeah, that's why I noted that mine had metal rings. I wouldn't think the tenon could crack with a ring, but I'm sure stranger things have happened. I have (had?) an old flute with some damage to the socket, so it's definitely possible.

It's more than possible: Remember those rings typically only fit perfectly when the instrument is at exactly the same dimensions as when the ring was intalled - assuming it even fit properly then! Any shrinkage of the socket, then leaves the wood smaller than the ring, and therefore suseptible to cracking...... Even with a good fitting ring, on trad flutes they are so narrow that it is theoritically possible to split the socket further up, above where the ring is supporting the wood.

Loren

[Sillydill]

Being the owner (I presume) of the flute with that suffered damage to the socket! THAT'S WHY SHE WEARS THE ALUMINUM MINISKIRT!
My conclusion regarding that flute is that it was "sat upon"! The tennon is also minorly damaged, I conclude that the union of the socket/tennon was jeopardized by a point loading perpendicular to the axis of the flute, in close proximity to the socket! (Often it is handy to be an Engineer)

Loren Wrote:

Just as a point of interest in these cases: It's actually the socket that is most vulnerable, rather than the tennon, as circles are much stronger when forced from the outside than they are when pressure is applied from the inside - think of how arches bear weight.

Be careful! Wood has roughly twice the strength in compression that is has in tension. The socket is subjected to tension and the tennon is subjected to compression. To increase the joints tensile strength, metal (or other materials, ivory being very weak and fragile in tension) rings are added to increase the strength of the socket. But, if these rings are not properly "pretensioned" or fastened tight, they serve only an aesthetic purpose!

All the Best!

Jordan

[Jumbuk]

I realize Mopane is probably the most recently added wood to the Irish flute market. I'm new to it as well. It seems to absorb much more moisture than blackwood even though is it supposed to be about the same density. I haven't noticed the swelling problem yet because I don't play it, yet, more than an hour.

Any experience with Mopane out there in terms of the tenon swelling?

BillG

I have a mopane Casey Burns folk flute. Haven't noticed any significant swelling, even though it does get very wet after an hour or so. Have noticed discolouration (lighter colur) of the timber where condensate has seeped out of the finger holes, and round the embouchure hole - a quick rub with an oily rag gets rid of that.

On my Sweetheart keyless in purpleheart (my first flute), I did get exactly the swelling that Loren has described. I even posted on this forum about it because it worried me a lot. It never cracked, and I reduced the incidence somewhat by greasing the cotton thread with Vaseline.

On my Sweet 6-key in Blackwood, the cork joints were very tight when I got it. I have lightly sanded them and greased them, but they still seem fairly tight - the silver rings reassure me that the socket won't split. This flute gets fairly wet as well (I must be a wet player), but I haven't noticed much swelling.

[chas]

Being the owner (I presume) of the flute with that suffered damage to the socket! THAT'S WHY SHE WEARS THE ALUMINUM MINISKIRT!
My conclusion regarding that flute is that it was "sat upon"! The tennon is also minorly damaged, I conclude that the union of the socket/tennon was jeopardized by a point loading perpendicular to the axis of the flute, in close proximity to the socket! (Often it is handy to be an Engineer)

I misspoke; I meant to say that I'd seen a tenon that was damaged (damaged sockets, as Loren pointed out, are all over the place). Yeah, it's the Mollenhauer I was thinking of. I hadn't thought of it being sat upon or dropped, that makes sense.

[jim stone]

Cracked the barrel of my Olwell blackwood pratten.
Played it for three hours, then stood it up to drain.
I had had it for two months.
Patrick accused me of flute abuse, however when
I sent it to him said he could tell from the
crack that the wood had been defective.