Re-reading a sci-fi classic....

[buddhu]

...Absolutely. One of my favourite Sci-Fi authors is John Wyndham, and I don't think any of his books ran more than 250 pages. That's how to tell a story.

That's my problem with people like Stephen King. Yer man spins a good enough yarn, but he never uses one word where 100 will do...

And what about L Ron Hubbard? Battlefield Earth was not only a load of carp, it ran to about a thousand pages of carp. Insult to injury, and all that.

[jsluder]

I hope I don't offend anyone, but I can't stand Robert Jordan...
I read the first four and part of the fifth(skipped ahead a good deal, cause it just seemed to repeat the others) of the Wheel of Time Thingymabopper, and it seemed that each book was just a new way of trying to sell the same plot line as the first and second books.
IMHO, the entire mess could have been done in two books, maybe three.
It's just my opinion, but I don't think Robert Jordan is a very good writer/storyteller.

Absolutely. One of my favourite Sci-Fi authors is John Wyndham, and I don't think any of his books ran more than 250 pages. That's how to tell a story.

I agree about Jordan, but one author who's writing a series of long books and making each book worthwhile is George R.R. Martin. His Song of Ice and Fire fantasy series (book 4 is out in hardback; scheduled to go to at least 6 books) is quite good so far. (Caveat: I've only read the first 3; waiting for book 4 in paperback.)

[Wormdiet]

I agree about Jordan, but one author who's writing a series of long books and making each book worthwhile is George R.R. Martin. His Song of Ice and Fire fantasy series (book 4 is out in hardback; scheduled to go to at least 6 books) is quite good so far. (Caveat: I've only read the first 3; waiting for book 4 in paperback.)

He's getting distinctly *Jordanesque*! the 4th book is nowhere near as good as the first three.

Issues:
1) Character/Plotline bloat. He's added so many subplots that there is NO main story remaining. The Starks take up maybe 10% of the book, and that's just the two little orphan girls who are annoying anyway. Why couldn;t he have killed them off rather than some of the real interesting folks? There is so much going on that it's hard to care about any of it. No mention of Tyrion whatsoever. Plenty of stuff about random noble houses with various schemes that one loses count.

2) Self-parody. Martin is getting obsessive about, for lack of a better term, "medieval earthiness." I don't need any more desciptions of drinking bouts, farting, wenching, casual violence, etc. In the first book or two these details were refreshing, now they are merely redundant.

3) It's only 50% of what he intended to write as the fourth novel, so he chopped it in two and will release the second half later! What clearly happened was that the publishing company valued profits over decent editing, and let Martin succumb to his own worst instincts.

All that being said, it's still better than anything Jordan has done since the second WOT book. There's a good story about Cersei buried in the dreck, which gives it some redeeming value.


the Amber series, in contrast, was fantastic, especially the first five books. An original idea and a spare, lean style. Zelazny wastes no words. What a nice change from today's mass market.

[beowulf573]

I've been reading the Martin books and really enjoying them, but passed on the last one. I'm going to wait until all are out before I start up again, I hate trying to remember all of the characters and plot details with a year or two between books.

[Martin Milner]

I'm going to wait until all are out before I start up again, I hate trying to remember all of the characters and plot details with a year or two between books.

That's another problem I have with series books - if you catch them while they're new, you have to wait for publication, and if you see them once they're all out, it's a lot of reading to catch up on...

[fearfaoin]

No mention of Tyrion whatsoever. Plenty of stuff about random noble houses with various schemes that one loses count.

That's appalling. I love Tyrion's character, and really, really hate
those long descriptions of the banner being carried by each house...

It's only 50% of what he intended to write as the fourth novel, so he chopped it in two and will release the second half later! What clearly happened was that the publishing company valued profits over decent editing, and let Martin succumb to his own worst instincts.

Oh, I thought it was just that modern bookbinding techniques couldn't
contain him. I heard that he split the story into two points of view, the
first book from the POV of the Lannisters/Baratheons and their
subjects, and the second book from the POV of the Dragon Queen
(or whatever the hell they call Daenarys), rather than splitting
chronologically. Any evidence of that?

[beowulf573]

That's another problem I have with series books - if you catch them while they're new, you have to wait for publication, and if you see them once they're all out, it's a lot of reading to catch up on...

That was one benefit to not starting the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/st ... 565">Miles Vorkosigan</a> series until this year, I had a big pile of really great books to read, one right after another.

I was really depressed when I finished the last one.

Bujold's been <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038081 ... 5">writing </a> a great set of fantasy books recently, however each one is standalone set in a common universe.

[Innocent Bystander]

Every so often I reread Heinlein. Sometimes I think the books have aged gracefully, and others I wonder why I ever thought Heinlein was worth the time. Okay, I still enjoy Time Enough For Love.

Can anyone point me to a recent SF novel that holds a candle to these?

I used to quite like Heinlein until he started to set my teeth on edge, and I couldn't work out why. I mentioned it to someone who said:
"In chapter two he meets the heroine who gives him a hard time until he spanks her and then she's nice as pie." And he was right too. In every book I bothered to look at. Nope. No more Heinlein for me.

As for newbies, what about William Gibson? Neuromancer, Burning Chrome?

Can't be doing with that Ian M Banks character...

[Wormdiet]

Oh, I thought it was just that modern bookbinding techniques couldn't
contain him. I heard that he split the story into two points of view, the
first book from the POV of the Lannisters/Baratheons and their
subjects, and the second book from the POV of the Dragon Queen
(or whatever the hell they call Daenarys), rather than splitting
chronologically. Any evidence of that?

Yup, he explains it in an appendix. Still, the Daenerys subplot was the silliest aspect of the first three books - Aren't the fantasy/SF shelves already groaning under the heapings of cliched tales concerning plucky young females facing insurmountable odds? That subplot is also a lot more supernatural than the rest of the book and it doesn;t quite fit as well, for me.

I suspect a lot more of the next one will deal with events on The Wall and Jon Stark (who's in the 4th one for all of three pages).

[LeeMarsh]

I had a small collection of SF/Fantasy novels until I moved. At the time I sold off most of my collection I had 1600 paperbacks. There were a number of authors I came to love Gibson was great. Some were great literature, but most were just good adventure stories. Marion Zimmer Bradley's darkover, Andre Norton, Steve Perry, Eddings, Some Heinlein, Orson Scot Card, CJ Cherish (sp?), Roberson, Steve Barns, Van Lustbader, Donaldson, Silverberg, Ann McCaffey, to name a few (and probably miss-spell) that come to mind. Most were read when my commute included an hour train ride each way. I went through 2-3 per week for about 10 years. I still have about 600 books left packed away. I took a break from them about 4 years ago, but have started reading some of them again starting with Steve Perry (simple space cowboy stuff).
Heinlein's Stranger in Strange Land and Dune were some of my first. I was a sociology major and was amazed with what both left unsaid but implied. I had a friend who hated Dune; when I discussed it with her, I realized she missed so much of the implications. She had no concept of what the society was like Prior to the rise of the Atredese (sp?) that she couldn't see the impact and point of the revolution. I have many fond memories of late night discussions of Dunes socio-political concepts.

For those who liked the book but found the first Dune movie un-fullfilled. I'd recommend the SciFi channel's mini-series. Both parts are available on DVD.

Anyway, its nice to hear other's are reading SF, and I'm not the only wierd one. I think most of the stories I liked the best were the sociological extrapolations of roads our civilization could be headed down. They weren't predictions as much as warnings.

Perhaps mostly they were an escape, an intertainment, with simplfied examinations of the implications of opposing socio-political, economic, and theolical concepts. "What if"'s that gave meaning to both sides and in doing so argued well for moderation.

Oh well, back to my music. With or without our dreams of tomorrow's technological miracles, may you each find a place to ...

[beowulf573]

I just finished re-reading "Snow Crash" last night. The first chapter was a little cheesy, and I was worried that the book wasn't going to be a classic as I remembered it being, but it quickly picked up. I still need to finish Stephenson's System of the World trilogy.

[Wormdiet]

I just finished re-reading "Snow Crash" last night. The first chapter was a little cheesy, and I was worried that the book wasn't going to be a classic as I remembered it being, but it quickly picked up. I still need to finish Stephenson's System of the World trilogy.

But cheese can be brilliant!

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

Dune was great, but (so far as my questionable memory serves) the author had a habit of switching viewpoint between characters without warning...

Multiple viewpoints was a technique developed by SF writers like Philip K. Dick, working in isolation; later on it was championed by postmodernists etc.
I enjoyed the Dune books and remember an assesment of various ultra-popular Old Schoolers of SF, Herbert, Clarke, Heinlein, Elron Hubbard. The author, Fred Pohl maybe? ranked Herbert ahead of the pack, having gone into old age with a bit more grace than the others.
I've enjoyed a few Heinleins, the novella Universe for instance, but I found all the gung ho sexist chest thumping a bit off-putting too. It should be said that Heinlein's wife was apparently as sharp as he was and inspired some of his more independent-minded female characters later on.
I was telling a saleslady at Powell's books about the quartet of great writers that all debuted in 1962 = Roger Zelazny, Samuel R. Delaney, Thomas M. Disch and Ursula K. Le Guin. Any of these I'd rank higher than the above-mentioned purely as writers, lots of SF writers have splendid far-reaching imaginations which can make up for their being merely comptent as writers per se.
Dune is also an example of "Space Opera" as they call it. So are the Stars Wars and Trek. Dogfights in outer space are rather unlikely to ever occur, same with any kind of space empire, if we never manage to travel faster than light (which the physists all tell us is most likely the case). Brian Aldiss did a series of fun anthologies in the 70s, Space Empires and the like. Modern anthologies by editors like Gardner Dozois and David G. Hartwell showcase excellent writers of all generations. There are still heaps of writers writing great stories and books, SF still has a life in the magazine format too.

[Tyler]

Dogfights in outer space are rather unlikely to ever occur, same with any kind of space empire, if we never manage to travel faster than light (which the physists all tell us is most likely the case).

If the human race can keep from exterminating itself , I imagine our fututre to be closer to Babylon 5 than Trek or Starwars...
The feudalistic system in Dune I think could also be likely, but without the central Imperial govornment. It might be more like a bunch of feuding "city-states."
Also, the scenerio in Firefly/Serenity is also on my list of likely possibilities.

[Joseph E. Smith]

Anybody here read the works of Steven Brust? Like the Jhereg series and related books?