L.E. McCullough's v. Grey Larson's

[peeplj]

I´d love the idea of a review section about tutoring books and tune books. For a beginner or not so advanced player deciding which book to buy can be almost as difficult as finding a whistle one likes.

It's not a bad idea, but it would be of limited use.

Not everyone learns the same way, and not everyone comes to the music with the same background.

The one thing most folks tend to agree on is you can't go wrong by starting with the Bill Ochs book.

But, like the whistles, there aren't many good one-size-fits-all solutions.

--James

[MaryC]

Unless he's updated it, LE's method is 25 years old or more. When he published it, his was the only tutor for the whistle available.

My copy says "First published and Copyright 1976. Ths editon published and Copyright 1987."

Cool - so we can also have a competition about "who's got the oldest McCullough". Mine says "<<copyright symbol>> L. E. McCullough 1976". The back cover has a note saying that an accompanying cassette tape is available from the publisher for $4.

The layout is interesting: pages are typewritten in Courier font. Headings are emphasised with underlining*. Chapter headings are show by three complete rows of asterisks. All paragraphs start with a indentation. Musical notation is all handwritten. Many parts read like an essay with pictures, I presume due to the difficulty of making sub-headings stick out.

This layout has a certain charm (reminds me of learning to touch-type on manual typewriters 25 years ago). But readable, it aint. So unless later editions are more reader-friendly, I'd recommend anything else.

(FWIW, I'm a newbie - note trad spelling! - have been playing for 2 years, but due to limited practice time I really only have about 6 months experience. Basically I'm "sh*t" ... but I get a lot of enjoyment from it, and that's all I do it for. Mostly I work on pub-standard tunes, so that I already know the rhythm, and just have to learn the notes. I learned enough about cuts and taps from McCullough to articulate some notes, beyond that I'm not worried about ornamentation at all. Maybe this will change in 10 years or so


MaryC

* For those who remember, "Underlining is for typewriters" was mantra from the book "The Mac is not a Typewriter" Some of us learned all we now know about layout from this wee gem.

[bradhurley]

Cool - so we can also have a competition about "who's got the oldest McCullough". Mine says "<<copyright symbol>> L. E. McCullough 1976". The back cover has a note saying that an accompanying cassette tape is available from the publisher for $4.

I had that one too! I lent it to someone years ago and never got it back, but I remember it well.

And three cheers for "The Mac is Not a Typewriter." Nearly everyone I work with still uses two spaces after periods and colons, a throwback to the days of typewriters, monospaced fonts, and DOS, and I still hear Robin Williams's voice in my head as I delete those extra spaces.

Her "Non-Designer's Design Book" is also brilliant and has improved my design sense considerably.

[Wombat]

If you're going to learn from a book, you'll need Larsen eventually and, since he offers really detailed explanations, you might as well just start there.

That said, Brother Steve's website is free and excellent on ornamentation. He cuts right through to the core I think. If you start there you can go on to Larsen if and when you think you need to.

[Craig Stuntz]

This layout has a certain charm (reminds me of learning to touch-type on manual typewriters 25 years ago). But readable, it aint. So unless later editions are more reader-friendly, I'd recommend anything else.

Unfortunately, no, they're still typewritten.

[Cynth]

I started from Grey Larsen's Tin Whistle Toolkit (or Box?) and found I had no trouble understanding it at all. In fact, he explained a lot of things I would have had questions about. I have the other giant book of his, but I haven't compared the two as far as beginning material.

I got his book of finger exercises and I think I would also recommend finding some real simple tunes on-line and learning those before moving on to the chapter on cuts. The exercises are great, but the first tune you really learn is in the chapter on cuts and it seems a bit difficult if you haven't played before. When a tune takes too long to learn for a beginner, I think a person can feel one isn't really progressing. Some simple tunes sort of get you through that. I have his book of tunes and the CD but I haven't really gotten that far.

I think it is an outstanding book. I think someone mentioned the care he takes in distinguishing "articulation" from "ornamentation". Coming from a classical background (not advanced) I don't know if I would have gotten that on my own, and it really made a difference in how I thought about things. I might have just heard "grace notes" since that is all my mind had been taught existed. I think if a beginner just moved through the book slowly he would not have a problem at all. Some people have commented though that there was too much to read----so that analytical style which suits me so perfectly might not suit everyone. I'd say if you have a classical background, it would be very good for helping you to see that you aren't playing classical music.

I haven't used Mr. McCullogh's tutorial, so my lack of comment should not be taken as a negative thing.

[shadeclan]

I started from Grey Larsen's Tin Whistle Toolkit (or Box?) and found I had no trouble understanding it at all. In fact, he explained a lot of things I would have had questions about. I have the other giant book of his, but I haven't compared the two as far as beginning material . . .

Hi, Cynth.

I took a quick peek at the two books on Amazon.com and I noted that the introduction is identical for both books. I suspect that Mr. Larsen may have created the toolbox book out of excerpts from his larger book. A nice idea - you don't miss anything if you buy only the larger book - and the smaller book is probably more easily searchable. From what I can tell from what everybody has said and from the fact that the guidebook is 480 pages long , it must be a pretty exhaustive treatise.

[piedwhistler]

Cynth, I couldn't agree more. I too am coming from a classical background in music. I think the reason we can get so much out of Larsen's book is because he is coming from a classical background also (at least, that is the jist I got from the book). He went to Oberlin, which, from what I remember when I was researching music conservatories, has a very good music school. Larsen kind of bridged the gap for me between classical and traditional music. That said, I am having an absolute blast with his book because now I am understanding what seemed like a mystery before.

Also, just to throw this in, I used a book called "Mel Bay's Complete Irish Tin Whistle Book" by Mizzy McCaskill and Dona Gilliam. When I first got it, it seemed like a really good book. It starts you out simple, but then goes into ornamentation. But it does perpetuate the "grace-note myth"

[Bloomfield]

My considered opinion is that the only book that ought to be recommended is Bill Ochs's. Nothing else is required; everything else should be done by ear after that. Or to put it differently: everything beyond Bill's tutor will be learned by ear or not at all.

Larsen's section on flute posture is good and I like what he writes about players in the back. Some of his transcriptions are interesting, if hampered by his superfluous and unhelpful new notation system. The actual instruction part doesn't seem that useful to me.

McCullough's book is a bit odd stylistically (I don't hear people playing that way, really), and the didactic structure is off---hard for beginners to get much use out of. The Kesh is not a good place to start, and piling off-the-wall variations on top of the Kesh even less so.

All my humble opinion, of course. YMMV.

[phoebe]

As someone fairly new to the whistle, I think both books are great, but it depends on what you're looking for. The McCullough book was my first and it got me started nicely and made me feel that I had some hope of actually playing well someday. The Larsen book, which I got months later, might be bit discouraging to a newcomer. I read through the first chapters and immediately thought, "I have so far to go I might never make it." But Larsen's much more detailed style was just what I needed at that point. Of course, there are times when I wish I'd had the Larsen book first, since I've been forced to unlearn some bad habits that I'd picked up which were not even covered in the McCullough book.

[Jennie]

My considered opinion is that the only book that ought to be recommended is Bill Ochs's. Nothing else is required; everything else should be done by ear after that. Or to put it differently: everything beyond Bill's tutor will be learned by ear or not at all.

Here I'll put in another plug for Larsen's book, because I'm one who has benefited greatly from his descriptions. Yes, a thousand times yes, on learning by ear! But if you have no traditional players anywhere near, and you're trying to figure out what the heck it is that makes the difference between classical and Irish traditional style, Larsen puts it out there. My ears work fine and are serving me well, but having another explanation has really speeded my process.

Jennie

[Aislinn]

[/quote]
Hi, Cynth.

I took a quick peek at the two books on Amazon.com and I noted that the introduction is identical for both books. I suspect that Mr. Larsen may have created the toolbox book out of excerpts from his larger book. A nice idea - you don't miss anything if you buy only the larger book - and the smaller book is probably more easily searchable. From what I can tell from what everybody has said and from the fact that the guidebook is 480 pages long , it must be a pretty exhaustive treatise.[/quote]

For a comparison of the two Larsen books, you can go to his website. Larsen states exactly what to find in which book and informs about additional material. http://www.greylarsen.com/

[shadeclan]

Hi, Cynth.

I took a quick peek at the two books on Amazon.com and I noted that the introduction is identical for both books. I suspect that Mr. Larsen may have created the toolbox book out of excerpts from his larger book. A nice idea - you don't miss anything if you buy only the larger book - and the smaller book is probably more easily searchable. From what I can tell from what everybody has said and from the fact that the guidebook is 480 pages long , it must be a pretty exhaustive treatise.

For a comparison of the two Larsen books, you can go to his website. Larsen states exactly what to find in which book and informs about additional material. http://www.greylarsen.com/

Thanks for the info. I bookmarked the site and I will take a closer look when I have a few minutes.

[gallant_murray]

My considered opinion is that the only book that ought to be recommended is Bill Ochs's. Nothing else is required; everything else should be done by ear after that. Or to put it differently: everything beyond Bill's tutor will be learned by ear or not at all.

Here I'll put in another plug for Larsen's book, because I'm one who has benefited greatly from his descriptions. Yes, a thousand times yes, on learning by ear! But if you have no traditional players anywhere near, and you're trying to figure out what the heck it is that makes the difference between classical and Irish traditional style, Larsen puts it out there. My ears work fine and are serving me well, but having another explanation has really speeded my process.

Jennie

I tend to agree with Jennie. I've often wished that I had grown up in Ireland or somewhere where traditional teachers were just more available. Some of the most famous players had whistles in their hands at very young ages and had teachers who were a part of the tradition. I didn't even know what a tinwhistle was until I stumbled across a Joanie Madden CD when I was 16. Growing up in a small town in California I didn't even know any else who liked (or had even ever listened to) Irish Trad. I just never had (and probably never will have) the opportunity to have a teacher of Irish music or even a peer to play tunes with. I understand the high importance and value of listening to as much good playing as possible, but it seems that a good book that gives detailed explanation might make up for some of what I've missed out on because I never had a teacher.

[MacNeil]

Cool - so we can also have a competition about "who's got the oldest McCullough". Mine says "<<copyright symbol>> L. E. McCullough 1976". The back cover has a note saying that an accompanying cassette tape is available from the publisher for $4.

I've got the same one.

It seems that recent reprints are just that -- exact reprints of the original pages, with a different cover.

I wish they had taken the time to re-typeset the musical examples, since I find what appears to be McCullough's handwritten notation to be very difficult to read.