simple question about keys

[cutterpup]

Okay folks, the answer to this is probably staring me in the face but I just can't see it through closed eyes. In the world of recorders a C recorder plays C with all holes covered whereas all holes covered for an F recorder plays an F and a G recorder plays a G. (This is in baroque..lets leave german and renn fingering out of this). This means basically learning a different fingering for each key you want to play.
How does this translate to whistles? I have been learning D (soprano) and would like to start considering getting a low whistle. I have read here that the low G's are easier to start on than the low D's. BUT, how does the fingering figure in??? My poor brain is already overloaded with three recorder fingerings plus the D whistle, work, school (at my tender middle age) a dulcimer and a part time photo biz http://www.orchidimages.net/ (Check it out for a larger pic of one of my recorders playing in the snow).
So, do I finger a c# on a G whistle the same as on a D whistle or must I learn a new set of fingerings. If it means new fingerings I'll stick to the D's.

Thanks
Judy (28 cameras, 11 recorders, 3 whistles ,1 mountain dulcimer)

[Martin Milner]

All fingers down on a D plays D, all fingers down on a G would play G etc.

However if you play a tune on a low G exactly the same as on a soprano D, you're playing the same tune but in a different key. A low D is an octave below a normal D.

Generally, if you're playing from sheet music, play on a Soprano D. Memorise the tune and stop looking at the page.

Once you have the tune memorised, you can transpose to any other key by changing the whistle, but keeping the same fingering.

If you're using any other key of whistle, you're better off playing from memory, or by ear.

[cutterpup]

All fingers down on a D plays D, all fingers down on a G would play G etc.

However if you play a tune on a low G exactly the same as on a soprano D, you're playing the same tune but in a different key. A low D is an octave below a normal D.

Dang..in that case..what of that rumour that a low G is easier to play than a low d??????
yet..the mind is turning (can't you see it???), the D whistle is fingering is similar to the C recorder in that if I use 123456 (plus thumb) on the recorder I get a D, same as 123456 on the whistle..and on the F recorder 123456 (plus thumb) gets me a G.
Therefore since I can play both C and F recorders I should be able to play both D and G whistles.
If the high D is a soprano and the low D a tenor, does this make the low G an alto??? The F recorder (alto) is known for it's haunting voice. I'd love the same in a whistle.

Unless I'm on the wrong track here,I may have just talked myself into a low G.
Judy

[Adrian]

Hi Judy

Most whistlers seem to treat the whistle as a transposing instrument and play them all as if they were in the key of D. This make playing in different keys very easy as you simply learn the tune and play it on a whistle in the appropriate key. It would be quite a challenge to learn the individual fingering for all the 12 keys you can get whistles in.

The baroque alto F 'haunting'? They can have a beautiful tone but I have not heard one I would describe as haunting. However the bass F recorder (like the alto flute) certainly can sound 'haunting'.

We have about 6 altos in the house but I personally prefer the cleaner and richer sound of an F whistle any day. It is also a LOT easier to play well IMHO.

[cutterpup]

Hi Judy

The baroque alto F 'haunting'? They can have a beautiful tone but I have not heard one I would describe as haunting. However the bass F recorder (like the alto flute) certainly can sound 'haunting'.

Ahh, you need to hear some renn pieces played on a mellow alto such as one made from pearwood or boxwood. part is the ability of the player..it takes a certain style of breath control to get the notes clear yet with the slight waver that a haunting melody requires. It is not something you'll get out of a hardwood or plastic instrument. even though my mollenhauer is a baroque (denner) I can get the haunting tones, espcially in the lower register. It is may favorite technique when playing the alto..it would be easier on a renn instrument but I can't afford one right now..not even a dream.
Judy

[Tyghress]

Judy, you may be over analyzing this. You can play ANY whistle with the same fingering. The reason a G whistle is easier than a low D is because the reach isn't a long and there is less breath needed.

Every whistle has basically the same fingering, though some people may choose to leave extra fingers down in order to balance the whistle. The only fingering that changes from whistle to whistle is on a C natural which may need something specific to be more in tune. And maybe some of the really high notes.

But the basic idea is that all whistles are fingered the same. To transpose a tune to a different key, just pick up the appropriate whistle. So something you learn in D on a D whistle will play in F on an F whistle or A on an A.....

Something you learn in G on a D whistle plays in D on an A whistle, plays in C on a G whistle.....

[cutterpup]

soo, let me get this straight...If I pick up a G whistle and play it as if I am playing my D whistle it will sound in the key of G but the fingering will remain the same...BUT if I'm playing to a tuner to check something out XXXXXX on the G will give me a G while I should be playing xxxooo on the D to be sounding out a G?
I can deal with this, and with the idea of a shorter finger stretch and less breath..but, how does it sound? i am looking for low and haunting..I play mostly by myself (for the whistle) so I'm not worried about being in key with anyone else.

[fearfaoin]

Yeah, I transpose my music for whatever key of whistle I want to use.
If I have a tune in G that I want to play on the G whistle, then I
transpose it down to D and pretend my G whistle was a D whistle, and
it sounds like it is in G. For example, the Kesh Jig is in G



Since I can get the abc from thesession.org, I put the abc notation into
some tool, like the abctrasposer and hit the "Tune Down" button until
the key says "Dmaj" instead of "Gmaj". Then I convert that new abc
into a gif or pdf or something for printing, like so:

[bradhurley]

Yeah, I transpose my music for whatever key of whistle I want to use.

A noble effort, I suppose, but totally unnecessary in my opinion. It's easier to just "pretend" you're playing a D whistle and treat the notes as absolutes: For example if you own a G or a Bb whistle, you could easily learn the tune from the first transcription of the Kesh jig above by pretending you're playing a D whistle and just playing the notes that way. (I would avoid the transcriptions in thesession.org, though because 90% of the ones I've seen there are badly heard versions of the tunes...including the Kesh jig transcription above which has some weirdness in the last bar of the a part for example.)

When I'm playing a Bb whistle or a G whistle, I call the lowest note "D" and play it as if I were playing a D whistle; there's no need to learn what the actual notes are unless you're playing with other people who need to know. This assumes you're playing traditional Irish music. I suppose if you were playing classical or baroque music on the whistle you'd need to know what the notes are but most traditional players treat every key of whistle as if it were in the key of D.

On the other hand, if you're taking a low G whistle to a session where all the other whistle players and flutes are playing D instruments, then I suppose learning the transposed tunes would be helpful, but it would be a lot easier to just bring a D whistle.

[cutterpup]

I suppose if you were playing classical or baroque music on the whistle you'd need to know what the notes are

That's what I have recorders for

As for having two low whistles..well that is definitly not in the budget right now (but I did buy two raffle tickets)

From all the responses I don't think I'll have much problem with a G whistle..guess I'll need to start listening to sound clips now of both D's and G's

Judy (still only 3 whistles)

[fearfaoin]

A noble effort, I suppose, but totally unnecessary in my opinion.

It illustrates my point, but I seldom actually do it with the dots
anymore. I decided Boys of Malin would be easier on an A whistle,
so I noodled around on my D until I could play it in D. Then, when I
got an A whistle, I could use the same fingerings and it came out
in A, then I could play along in session on the A whistle.

But, I think it takes a little playing around with the dots to internalize
enough music theory to be able to figure out which whistle would be
useful for which tune.

[colomon]

On the other hand, if you're taking a low G whistle to a session where all the other whistle players and flutes are playing D instruments, then I suppose learning the transposed tunes would be helpful, but it would be a lot easier to just bring a D whistle.

If nothing else, it's an interesting exercise to learn to play common tunes in more than one key. (Which is equivalent to learning to play it in the same key on a different key of whistle.)

With a tune like "Michael Reilly's" (the Sligo key of G setting of Sean Ryan's "Twilight in Portroe"), which has several phrases on the G-string, it's downright useful to learn it in both G and D, so you can play it (moving sections up an octave) on a D whistle if that's what you have in your hands, but play the notes the way they are supposed to be on a G whistle if you have one handy.

[bradhurley]

From all the responses I don't think I'll have much problem with a G whistle..guess I'll need to start listening to sound clips now of both D's and G's

Judy, you might want to consider low F whistles as well. I really think there's something special about the low F; if you're looking for "haunting" you'll definitely find it there. Personally if I could only have one low whistle it would be an F. Since you said you're not planning to play in sessions and want a low whistle for your own enjoyment, it doesn't matter if the whistle will mesh with standard D whistles and flutes.

[bradhurley]

If nothing else, it's an interesting exercise to learn to play common tunes in more than one key. (Which is equivalent to learning to play it in the same key on a different key of whistle.)

Yes, although I personally think it's a good exercise to learn to do that by ear on the same whistle that you normally play...once you have the intervals of the tune in your head, you can figure it out pretty quickly without having to transpose the sheet music. All of us can do that already with tunes like twinkle-twinkle little star or mary had a little lamb...if you start on any given note you can figure out where the tune goes from there. Eventually you can develop the ability to do that with Irish dance tunes as well. I've watched experienced musicians transpose tunes on the fly, without ever having played them before in that key, at full tempo in sessions. I can do it, but not so quickly as the finger patterns often trip me up.

[gonzo914]

Just to inject a little more confusion into the mix --

I'm wondering if you wouldn't find an A whistle more useful than a G. An A whistle plays in D very nicely, just as a D whistle plays nicely in G. Play just like you play a G tune on a D whistle -- D is top three fingers down, and you have to finger or half-hole the G nat.