Last few copies of Wooden Flute Obsession vol. 2

[maire]

Come now lads lets be nice about it.

Kevin,

you need to understand that while your intentions are indeed meant in the best possible way, we this end of the world, have been asked to take part in various offers over the years.
In alot of the semi-proffessional/proffessional musicians experiences here, things have not always been so honorable.
After doing a recording some 6yrs back, I happened to come across a company selling tracks I had laid down at that time.
It was supposed to be an experiment in regional styles, and I recieved no monies from it, nor have I to this date.
With a family to feed, I cant afford to throw away my time for the benefit of a studio looking to make a fast buck, especially when they managed to get monetary value out of it, and I didnt get as much as traveling expenses.
The other point in question, is that this is not a personal matter.

I have similar experiences with a few organisations all of whom wont be mentioned here.
Indeed one of those recordings has come back to haunt me. I hate it with a passion, yet without any choice in the matter I am forced to be reminded of it on a regular basis. Before you ask, I recieved royalties, and even though this company has sold the piece (which I believe to be sub-standard ), many times , I haven`t recieved any further payments.

On the other hand, as Harry pointed out, some of these older musicians may never do another formal recording, and they will probably look back on the one you did with them in prosterity and pride. You owe their music a certain amount of respect as you do for the people themselves.
I`m sure this is all just a load of Cows wallop to some people, but some of these players are our friends and it kind of de-values their artistic imput by touting their music like that, although I am sure that was never your intention.

Good luck in your endeavours Kevin.

Maria

[kkrell]

Come now lads lets be nice about it.

I think we've arrived there, and not sure we ever left the world of 'nice'.

Kevin,

you need to understand that while your intentions are indeed meant in the best possible way, we this end of the world, have been asked to take part in various offers over the years.
In alot of the semi-proffessional/proffessional musicians experiences here, things have not always been so honorable.
After doing a recording some 6yrs back, I happened to come across a company selling tracks I had laid down at that time.
It was supposed to be an experiment in regional styles, and I recieved no monies from it, nor have I to this date.
With a family to feed, I cant afford to throw away my time for the benefit of a studio looking to make a fast buck, especially when they managed to get monetary value out of it, and I didnt get as much as traveling expenses.

Similar experiences were related to me, and showed me just what to avoid, and what assurances to give. For example, Jack Coen would not participate in WFO because of having received harsh treatment from a label. He did appreciate the CDs I sent him anyway, and thought the project a good idea. He thanked me for being the only one who ever ASKED for permission, although I'm sure he still felt it safest to decline. BTW, I had permission from that same label to include a track, but I made the effort to contact Mr. Coen in search of his OK. Didn't get it, didn't use the track, regardless of my legal permission to do so. I hope that speaks somewhat to my willingness to respect players' wishes. I think my contract protects from such abuses as you yourself experienced. I have noticed that quite a bit in Ireland gets done on a handshake, and while I accept that, I wanted to make an even stronger committment for my part. My goal is to eventually sit down and play flute with you all (if and when I can play worth a damn), and pissing you all off by behaving badly would not be consistent with that goal. Boy, all I need is to dedicate the remainder of my life to flute playing and get myself blacklisted and excluded from participating. That'll make life worth living.

The other point in question, is that this is not a personal matter.

I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean the "BIG PICTURE" that Harry refers to? That there are problems industry-wide (and maybe just the fact that I just called it an industry), and injustices that must be prevented?

I have similar experiences with a few organisations all of whom wont be mentioned here.
Indeed one of those recordings has come back to haunt me. I hate it with a passion, yet without any choice in the matter I am forced to be reminded of it on a regular basis. Before you ask, I recieved royalties, and even though this company has sold the piece (which I believe to be sub-standard ), many times , I haven`t recieved any further payments.

Again, addressed in my approach. First off, the players are encouraged to select the tunes to record, and given the additional opportunity of recording tunes for which royalties might need to be paid to composers, so as not to limit the possible selection. The idea was to not have that monetary issue restrict their selection, as might be a reasonable concern when recording an entire CD. Tracks that might make a personal CD financially infeasible, or not fit into their (or a label's) particular vision for a CD. For instance, a multi-instrumentalist might focus on a particular instrument, such as pipes, and thus a flute track wouldn't make it onto their CD.

Also, there is no expectation of payment anywhere in the process, and the artist is certainly donating the use of their intellectural property, willingly. They don't make any money, but then neither do I. My intention is also not to put them to any monetary expense, either, other then the committment of their time and talent. That was the agreement, and I'm sticking to it for these CDs. It was also necessary, mostly on WFO1, to get the cross-label participation I felt essential to show a wide range of styles. Labels otherwise weren't interested in allowing their 'talent' to be included at all. If I want to start a for-profit venture, that would be handled separately, as another company, on a different sort of basis.

In the end, the artist gets final approval as to whether to include a track or kill it. This has happened in a few instances, and while painful for me (especially if I liked the track), if the result is not something the player is willing to have out there for others to hear, I do not begrudge them the right to make that decision. And as I mentioned in another post, no transfer or assignments. WFO tracks are a non-exclusive use, limited to non-profit purposes, and I may not repackage, reuse, or license them in any way. It appears on the WFO discs as originally published, and I cannot use them in other ways. No WFO, no track. No ITMS, no track - they die with the organization (except for copies at the Irish Traditional Music Archive).

On the other hand, as Harry pointed out, some of these older musicians may never do another formal recording, and they will probably look back on the one you did with them in prosterity and pride.

That's more what I was thinking, and hoping for.

You owe their music a certain amount of respect as you do for the people themselves.

I do. I'm not really a flute player stalker. I'm not some freaky collector of Barbie dolls, or Toby mugs, or flute players. It's because of the respect of the players and their playing that I am so interested in doing this. And everyone has been so incredibly warm and kind and generous that I can't fail to love them, that I'd do anything for them. I started this project from scratch, having no experience in flute playing, the music industry, audio, CD publication, or, frankly, a social skill to my name. I've learned a lot over these last 4-5 years, and don't intend to stop doing so.

I`m sure this is all just a load of Cows wallop to some people, but some of these players are our friends and it kind of de-values their artistic imput by touting their music like that, although I am sure that was never your intention.

It was an admitted mistake/misjudgement. I overstepped any reasonable boundaries, and was soundly slapped for it. It was never so intended, and I hope I will be forgiven.

Good luck in your endeavours Kevin.

Maria

Thanks, Maria, for more on the subject. I hope I've managed to explain my philosophy equally well.

Kevin Krell

[maire]

Thats alright Kevin, I just didnt want you thinking that I was going to make a throw away comment, without backing it up with a few of my own thoughts on the matter.
I am glad you agree that some things need careful thought, often we barge through life unintentionally causing upset. You seem to me to be a mannerful man, who would be appalled to be seen in such a light.
And if you think Harry`s comments are academic, I know an `ole Fluter from Belfast who could clarify the matter for you, this boy is still complaing about a certain company who re-released his work without so much as a by-your-leave. The fact it was recorded more than 20yrs a go has no bearing on the issue for him, he still hates it !
Forgive me if I seem a bit Jaded, I do wish you well with all sincerity.

Maybe the best thing to do is not discuss these things on the forum. The meaning of a comment can be lost in translation here, although, your work does appear in a more transparent light now, because if I had questions, I'm sure others did too.

Regards and take care,

Maria

[kkrell]

I've generally made it a public process, from flute player suggestions, through listing proposed players, tune titles and MP3 samples as the project progresses. I'm sure that commercial labels tend to be a bit more secretive. My thought is since it's supposed to benefit the public, that the public should participate (and hopefully ANTICIPATE) all along.

And I don't think Harry is being academic, I've already seen the damage that is being done. Sets that were cobbled together from unrelated recordings, added accompaniment not involved in the original recordings, release of tracks that were never paid for, from publishing opportunities that were not utilised 15 years ago. There have also been tracks for which I had the artists permission, and that they'd like included in WFO, but since they don't have control it can't happen. A shame.

Kevin Krell

ps. yeah it's 4:30 am and I'm still up.

[Harry]

I AM NOT AN ACADEMIC (disclaimer)

ITM (or any other term for 'it') is a term fraught with all the problems that come with placing a simple conceptualisation onto a very large and inter-related set of things. When we use the term we are referring to our concept of what it includes/ excludes and our acceptance and rejection of what it should or should not include, and we are projecting our experiences of ITM-ness onto whatever we are percieving. It is obvious that we are not referring to, say, Beethoven when we use the term, but at the same time it is not a definite or self evident as to what we *do* mean in a broader sense (to anybody but ourselves, based on our own experience). The term is now even more inherently indefinite due to the various strata of individuals using it who do not share similar cultural and social backgrounds, their experience of ITM-ness is different and so the term means something different in usage. This egocentric discriminating awareness was always present to some extent, but I think it is fair to say that a recent upturn in the saleability of 'Irishness' to a broader audience of potential participants in 'Irishness' has increased the diversity in the perception of "Irishness". This diversity causes tensions within the wider ITM community.

It is aguable that, until quite recently, the identity of ITM used to be much more clear cut. You had a smaller number of localised dedicated performers and other participents working within generally accepted aesthetic parimeters. They were largely Irish or of direct Irish descent and availed of a strong cultural identity that was probably more adhesive that it was constrictive, and, from a traditional arts point of view, more creative than distructive. They identified with their idea of 'the culture' and often with other things that popularly went with it (nationalism,' gaelic-ism' etc.). This is an identity that it is now popular to reject or at least to strongly question (or just demonise). It did have its negative aspects and results (like all cultural movements) and in it's defining and energising and cohesive aspects it had its relatively positive results.

Interestingly, in what seems to be a reaction to the more insular and constrictive aspects of 'Old Cultural Ireland', I now see a movement emerged that is at least equally as misguided and short sighted (but, tragically, not at all aware of the fact!). For all its swagger of internationalism (as 'opposed' maybe to insular nationalism) this roughly defined movement has found its stumbling block of neurotic self interest (and self loathing): commercialism, and its role as a commodity.

The wider emerging self centeredness and selfish materialism will be of no suprise to most people living in Ireland, you often hear people complain about the changing values here, the localised distribution of 'our' new wealth, the shift in spiritual (not just religious) values. The parallel is easily percieved in the ethics, lack of ethics and general shift in what is acceptable in folk music performance and related business.

My worry is that this materialist ethic will become a distraction for all concerned, that the inevitable tensions within 'the traditions' will distract more of us into the clammer for 'ownership' rights, royalties, publishing rights etc. and detract from what are the less selfish, and more cohesive, aspects of ,what is after all, the extended family of ITM culture. **But it should be realised that there are difinite movements afoot within Irish music and tension will exist if these are lumped together, there are contrasting aesthetic and ethical outlooks that are not always complimentary from the perspective of some performers**.

Being able to identify the sublime from the cynical is, of course, as desirable a quality as ever at this time. Of great use also would be the self effacing, humourous and irreverent introspection that could be considered one of our highest cultural achievements. When will those critics and commentators graduate from our universities please?

Regards,

Harry.

[rh]

Maybe the best thing to do is not discuss these things on the forum.

Were that to happen, it would be a pity, as this has been one of the most thought-provoking and consciousness-raising threads on the flute board in quite some time.

[Wormdiet]

Maybe the best thing to do is not discuss these things on the forum.

Were that to happen, it would be a pity, as this has been one of the most thought-provoking and consciousness-raising threads on the flute board in quite some time.

I was about to post exactly the same thing - these are very good comments for relative newby/outsiders like myself to hear. Thanks to all involved.

[maire]

Harry!

Thought you weren't an Academic?


Kevin, give us a shout when you ever get to this end of the world, and we can go out for a pint, a few tunes, and a bit of theorizing over the state of the Trad industry.
My head hurts.....

[Cathy Wilde]

Maybe the best thing to do is not discuss these things on the forum.

Were that to happen, it would be a pity, as this has been one of the most thought-provoking and consciousness-raising threads on the flute board in quite some time.

Amen. I feel sad for all headaches incurred by this discussion (including mine, just trying to process it!), but you've all raised some incredibly valuable points, given great perspective, and gotten a few folks thinking much more deeply.

In fact, we discussed the issue a bit at our session last night, and it's fascinating to hear how different people interpret the situation from a legal, musicological, cultural, and moral standpoint.

So thank you for this discussion, the three of you. In this age of digital mp3s and the Internet and downloads and FTPs and demo tracks and what have you, it's an area that probably needs major redefinition. It's not as simple as some studio owner having a box of old tapes in his attic anymore.

Also, most important, thank you all for caring about what's the right thing.