having a hard time stabilizing the flute...

[malem]

Hi you all,
I am new to the irish flute. I purchased a blackwood flute from a nice board member and I got it about one month ago now. I have been playing between 10 to 45 minutes almost every day. The problem I am having, is that I find it very hard to keep the flute absolutely stable when I play.
If I play a low D and then a B, most of the time the flute will move so the embouchure hole moves in relation to my mouth and the sound.. well you know!
I have the hardest time playing B and then D or B and then G.
I use the standard hold for the top hand, but the bottom hand... I was told that lots of people play with "flat" fingers (like pipers hold I think). I am not able to get a D like that. E and F yes, but not D. I use the tip of my fingers to cover the holes and I get a nice D, but I am not flexible enough to use put the bottom pinky on the flute to stabilize it. If I do, than I can keep the flute steady effortlessly, but I still can't make the D.
So I tried putting the pinky as soon as I move to F and removing it if I go lower, but I fear this will result in slugish performance in the future.
To much fingering.
So I am a bit discouraged tonight. If the flute is stable I can play otherwise, it sounds very bad and intermitent.
Any help and advice would be greatly welcome.

thanks

[jim stone]

Hi you all,
I am new to the irish flute. I purchased a blackwood flute from a nice board member and I got it about one month ago now. I have been playing between 10 to 45 minutes almost every day. The problem I am having, is that I find it very hard to keep the flute absolutely stable when I play.
If I play a low D and then a B, most of the time the flute will move so the embouchure hole moves in relation to my mouth and the sound.. well you know!
I have the hardest time playing B and then D or B and then G.
I use the standard hold for the top hand, but the bottom hand... I was told that lots of people play with "flat" fingers (like pipers hold I think). I am not able to get a D like that. E and F yes, but not D. I use the tip of my fingers to cover the holes and I get a nice D, but I am not flexible enough to use put the bottom pinky on the flute to stabilize it. If I do, than I can keep the flute steady effortlessly, but I still can't make the D.
So I tried putting the pinky as soon as I move to F and removing it if I go lower, but I fear this will result in slugish performance in the future.
To much fingering.
So I am a bit discouraged tonight. If the flute is stable I can play otherwise, it sounds very bad and intermitent.
Any help and advice would be greatly welcome.

thanks

Hi, well you are rt on course, in fact. The idea of using the pinky
to stabilize the flute is a good one. Putting the pinky down when
you move to F and removing it if you go lower is also
a good idea. No, it won't result in too much fingering.
This takes practice and patience is the key. You are
going through the rough part now.

You can practice this with the rt hand, going up from D to
Fsharp and down again, do it for ten minutes every day.
You may find that, as you get used to this, the pinky
will stay down at E and even eventually at D. Your
body will find a way by itself.

Also you might try to put a thick rubber band around the
bottom of the flute where the pinky falls, to give it a
better grip. You can take it off in a couple of months
as sooner or later you won't need it.

Again, it sounds as though you are doing well for
as long as you've been playing. Keep at it and don't
hesitate to ask questions here.

[greenspiderweb]

Try piper's on the lower-the pinky and thumb seem to be easier to use and lend better support than using standard grip on the bottom. I use standard on top, and it really stabilized the flute for me when I first started, instead of piper's top and bottom.

Of course, if you think you will want a keyed flute someday, getting used to standard grip on the bottom will be better in the long run-and will become stable the more familiar and comfortable you become just from picking up the flute and playing as much as you can.

Learning to relax when you play is good to keep in mind-and have fun! It will happen!

Here are some posts on flute hold and grips if you feel like reading!:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=22320

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ht=#251465

http://www.flutesite.com/posture_&_grip.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~life2all/dou ... e/id9.html

[jim stone]

Personally I would stay with standard grip on both hands,
having tried lots of alternatives. Classical grip was recommended
to me by teachers, but I strayed into piper's grip
and other grips, which didn't work out for me. But different strokes
for different folks. Certainly there are good players who
use other grips.

No question about this: the classical grip (both hands) gives excellent support for the flute, using the pinky technique.

[Terry McGee]

Give the 19th century approach a try - it was their flute after all. There are a couple of contemporary accounts on my web page, but the one by Rockstro is a good concise one to start with:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rocksto_on_ ... flute.html

I find I turn the head in (compared with the left-hand section), turn the right hand section out (compared with the left-hand section) and support the flute only by chin, LH1 and R thumb. It leaves L thumb free for the Bb key, and all four RH fingers free for their holes and key.

Terry

[chas]

First of all, malem, as Jim said, you're right on course. I was probably playing a year or more before the flute finally stabilized. Experiment with different grips and support points.

That said, I've been thinking about grips a lot the last few days. Since I've taken up the traverso, I've found that I hold it quite differently from the Irish flute. I've pretty much settled into Quantz's grip on the traverso. In this case, the lip is one anchor, the first joint pad of the LH index finger the second, and the LH thumb sits somewhat further down the flute and is the third anchor point. the RH thumb provides a little support, but that's it for the right hand.

I have tried this on the Irish flute (occasional cramping in the RH pinky), but it doesn't work, at least not yet. I don't know whether it's the larger diameter, bigger finger holes or possibly the more percussive style in jigs and reels. I play Rudall-style flutes and an A415 traverso, so the stretch is a little bigger on the latter.

[jim stone]

Give the 19th century approach a try - it was their flute after all. There are a couple of contemporary accounts on my web page, but the one by Rockstro is a good concise one to start with:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rocksto_on_ ... flute.html

I find I turn the head in (compared with the left-hand section), turn the right hand section out (compared with the left-hand section) and support the flute only by chin, LH1 and R thumb. It leaves L thumb free for the Bb key, and all four RH fingers free for their holes and key.

Terry

I did this. What happened in my case was that the flute was,
in fact, insufficiently stable. I believe I compensated without realizing it
by gripping with the left index. As i played a lot, this
led to serious tendinitis in that finger, which led to a doctor,
then a specialist, X Rays, a hiatus from flute playing.
I know Rockstro works for some people, but if it doesn't,
well, look out....I then shifted to piper's grip, which made
the tendinitis worse; lifting an extended finger taxes the
tendon more than lifting a curved finger does.

I solved the problem by (a) placing an improvised plastic tube
bopep to allow more extention for the left index, (b) using
a rubber band or adhesive tape as a firm touch for my rt pinky,
and (c) putting adhesive tape as a touch for my rt thumb,
under the flute between the fourth and fifth holes (this was
necessary to train my thumb where to go). I then used
classical grip, practiced holding the flute balanced between
three points: the lip, the fulcrum of Lefthand index base,
and rt hand pinky. Then I added thumbs, this with all other
fingers off the flute. When I had the flute firm the other
fingers only worked to close holes. You can hold a flute
with great stability using classical grip.

It took months but now I've dispensed with the bopep and
adhesive tape.

What motivated me to try these other grips was the desire
to have my rt pinky free to work the Eb key. I've solved
this problem by making the Eb key the touch for my
rt pinky. I'm increasing able to stretch toward the
block.

Our poster, Malem, is gravitating toward classical grip, in fact,
and that isn't a bad way to go, in fact. A question was
whether to stabilize the flute by putting the rt pinky
down. The answer is: Yes. Will it produce sluggish playing?
No. A bit of practice and this works fine. He's close
to solving the problem as is.

P. S. Oh, yes, I'm training myself to keep the rt hand fingers
curved, not flat, and to come down not too far from the
balls of the fingers. I believe this lends agility.

[SoTX]

Millions of classical flute players use the classical grip. The fact that done wrong it can lead to tendonitis is indeed a risk, but perhaps the solution is to do it right.

The left hand should be relaxed. The force comes from the arm. The force on the right thumb is compression. For about the first month the flute slips off the right thumb occasionally. It sounds strange, but that shows you're doing it right.

The flute becomes immobile. The pressure on the lip stabilizes the embouchure. All of the fingers are free. At least try it for a week, maybe with a flute teacher. And be careful not to grip with the right index finger, but that's one of the things a teacher will harass you about.

-- Don

[Craig Stuntz]

I find I turn the head in (compared with the left-hand section) [...]

Do you turn it in as far as Rockstro advises in the quoted article?

I have a Casey Burns folk flute, which has no joint between the LH and RH holes — the holes are fixed relative to each other so turning the RH section out as you describe is just not an option for me. But I'm a new player and still experimenting with the alignment of embouchure and finger holes, so I'm interested in the article and what you write.

Thanks,

-Craig

[jim stone]

Millions of classical flute players use the classical grip. The fact that done wrong it can lead to tendonitis is indeed a risk, but perhaps the solution is to do it right.

The left hand should be relaxed. The force comes from the arm. The force on the right thumb is compression. For about the first month the flute slips off the right thumb occasionally. It sounds strange, but that shows you're doing it right.

The flute becomes immobile. The pressure on the lip stabilizes the embouchure. All of the fingers are free. At least try it for a week, maybe with a flute teacher. And be careful not to grip with the right index finger, but that's one of the things a teacher will harass you about.

-- Don

Just to be clear on terminology, by 'classical grip,' I'm referring
to a grip where the rt pinky is used to stabilize the flute,
the rt thumb goes under the flute between the fourth and
fifth hole, the base of the left index finger is used as
a fulcrum. The flute is stabilized at three points--the lip
or chin, the base of the left hand index, and the rt hand pinky.
This is standard for classical flute players, though, as you
point out, other grips are used too.

What you seem to be referring to as 'classical grip' is what
Terry is calling '19th century grip'; it's sometimes
also called 'Rockstro grip.' I believe James Galway
uses this.

Unless I'm making a mistake about words, let me suggest
we use them this way; otherwise things will get very
confusing.

[malem]

Hi all you you very nice people that answered me,
just the fact to get such a great response is really encouraging. Thank you all!!!
I feel I must try on and harder so I will get it now. I can't let you down!
I still need to finish reading the link you sent me Terry, and so far it seems quite interesting.
What I have a lot of trouble is not gripping with the Left hand index, as lots of you mentionned. So I know I am not alone with this challenge!

I will practice more and get back to you. I just wanted to thank you all right now, because I am so happy with such help.

thank you.

I will give you news and maybe more questions once I practice more and follow advice. Now I am anxious to playing time tonite!!!

[JackFeeney]

This is what works for me, which doesn't affect pitch or ornamentation on my CBFF...very stable...

B A G F# E D
x x x x x x
o x x x x x
o o x x x x

o o o x x x
o o o o x x
x x x o o x

[Denny]

This is what works for me, which doesn't affect pitch or ornamentation on my CBFF...very stable...

Code: Select all

B   A    G   F#    E   D
x   x    x   x     x   x
o   x    x   x     x   x
o   o    x   x     x   x

o   o    o   x     x   x
o   o    o   o     x   x
x   x    x   o     o   x

Jack, that looks better with a fixed font!
howsabout

D XXX XXX
E XXX XXO
F XXX XOO
G XXX OOO
A XXO OOO
B XOO OOX
C# OOO OOO

and for what it's worth

Bb XOX XXX and XOX OXO
C OXO XXX for both octaves

[Jumbuk]

and for what it's worth

Bb XOX XXX and XOX OXO
C OXO XXX for both octaves

This is what James Joyce must have had in mind when he wrote "kates and eaps and naboc and erics and oinnos on kingclud and xoxxoxo and xooxox xxoxoxxoxxx till I'm fustfed like fungstif".

[malem]

thanks for fingerings! they appear different to me, the both posts, but I will experiment tomorrow. Close to bed time for tonite.

I am more stable today. Since I noticed that was the problem well I have been working on just that. And after a while of practicing, I can play part A of Eel in the sink (my first song) and beginning of Turtle Reel better.
So your advice really helped.

The article is great: thanks Terry!

I realized that if I focus on relaxing, keeping all fingers relaxed at all time, and keeping the flute stable unconsciously I use my pinky or not to stabilize the flute (after practicing simple note transition with and without pinky for a while). I realize that I should think less, and just focus on relaxing and stability of the flute, gently caressing it with my fingers instead of gripping and forcing sound out of it.
It becomes about giving and receiving, proposing and earing more that taking and making. Just like with horses, I love riding and horses, and now that I made that kind of connection, it helps. It helps me anyways and I thought I would share it as it is where I am on my flute journey and said I would give you update.
I really appreciate all the help. Thank you so much.