Dealing with whippersnappers

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bradhurley
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Post by bradhurley »

Cathy Wilde wrote: However, if I say "Frankie Gavin IS The Second Coming" with any measure of authority (even bluff authority counts, here) then someone, somewhere else who IS EQUALLY SURE that Frankie Gavin is NOT TSC will be compelled to challenge me.
This reminds me of a joke that has made the rounds for years so you probably all know it already, but anyway:

A well-known Irish musician dies and goes to Heaven. He's met at the gate by St. Peter, who instructs one of his angels to take the musician on a tour. They walk into the first room, and there in the corner is an incredible session with Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, Patrick Kelly, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Mrs Crotty, Mrs Galvin, and Garrett Barry. The musician stands there in awe for a few minutes listening, and then the angel pulls on his sleeve and takes him on to the next room, where Michael Coleman, James Morrison, and Paddy Killoran are playing tunes around a table full of pints. The musician stands there awestruck until the angel pulls him away again. They walk down a corridor, and in a room off to the side there's a lone fiddler blazing away a mile a minute on a set of reels. The angel keeps on walking by and the musician taps him on the shoulder and says, "wait, who's that?" "Oh," the angel replies, "that's just God, he thinks he's Frankie Gavin."
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Post by anniemcu »

Wormdiet wrote:Then there's the issue of older, more knowledgeable and reserved folks who have the social skills of a poison toad. People often equate knowledge with character or maturity, which is not necessarily accurate.
as true... indeed
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Post by anniemcu »

Denny wrote:
fel bautista wrote:
Joseph E. Smith wrote:viture. :D
with an R :o
a subtitle, abet Freudian, melding of virtue and vulture :lol:
as long as it's not vitriol
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Cathy Wilde
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Post by Cathy Wilde »

bradhurley wrote:
Cathy Wilde wrote: However, if I say "Frankie Gavin IS The Second Coming" with any measure of authority (even bluff authority counts, here) then someone, somewhere else who IS EQUALLY SURE that Frankie Gavin is NOT TSC will be compelled to challenge me.
This reminds me of a joke that has made the rounds for years so you probably all know it already, but anyway:

A well-known Irish musician dies and goes to Heaven. He's met at the gate by St. Peter, who instructs one of his angels to take the musician on a tour. They walk into the first room, and there in the corner is an incredible session with Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, Patrick Kelly, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Mrs Crotty, Mrs Galvin, and Garrett Barry. The musician stands there in awe for a few minutes listening, and then the angel pulls on his sleeve and takes him on to the next room, where Michael Coleman, James Morrison, and Paddy Killoran are playing tunes around a table full of pints. The musician stands there awestruck until the angel pulls him away again. They walk down a corridor, and in a room off to the side there's a lone fiddler blazing away a mile a minute on a set of reels. The angel keeps on walking by and the musician taps him on the shoulder and says, "wait, who's that?" "Oh," the angel replies, "that's just God, he thinks he's Frankie Gavin."
That's marvelous! Thank you so much!

But in MY heavenly session we'd also see .... ;-)
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Bloomfield
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Post by Bloomfield »

bradhurley wrote:
Cathy Wilde wrote: However, if I say "Frankie Gavin IS The Second Coming" with any measure of authority (even bluff authority counts, here) then someone, somewhere else who IS EQUALLY SURE that Frankie Gavin is NOT TSC will be compelled to challenge me.
This reminds me of a joke that has made the rounds for years so you probably all know it already, but anyway:

A well-known Irish musician dies and goes to Heaven. He's met at the gate by St. Peter, who instructs one of his angels to take the musician on a tour. They walk into the first room, and there in the corner is an incredible session with Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, Patrick Kelly, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Mrs Crotty, Mrs Galvin, and Garrett Barry. The musician stands there in awe for a few minutes listening, and then the angel pulls on his sleeve and takes him on to the next room, where Michael Coleman, James Morrison, and Paddy Killoran are playing tunes around a table full of pints. The musician stands there awestruck until the angel pulls him away again. They walk down a corridor, and in a room off to the side there's a lone fiddler blazing away a mile a minute on a set of reels. The angel keeps on walking by and the musician taps him on the shoulder and says, "wait, who's that?" "Oh," the angel replies, "that's just God, he thinks he's Frankie Gavin."
The way I know it, the musician hears the lone fiddler off playing by himself and he listens for a second and says, "Wait! That's Frankie Gavin, I could tell his playing anywhere! I didn't know he had died." "He hasn't," replies the angel. "That's God. He thinks he's Frankie Gavin."
/Bloomfield
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carrie
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Re: Dealing with whippersnappers

Post by carrie »

Sliabh Luachra wrote: He's really one of my favorite people in the world. And he's a freakin' great fiddler/piano player.

Any of you guys know Cleek?
I've heard him several times, and even was in a session with him once. He was one of the young guests when Josephine Keegan came to Chicago last year, and I've heard him a few times at John Daly-sponsored events. I agree with you about his talents! I do not know him at all, but he comes across as someone who has nothing but respect for the great players he has learned from and even humility. Very interesting story.

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Post by maire »

I have very distinct memories of driving my older and wiser music associates mad with my incessant questions and twaddle about what I thought I knew about trad. They very nicely told me to go away and come back when I had something intelligent to say!
I did.
Except now it happens to me all the time with young ones.
On days when I have given up the will to live, I cast my mind back to those times in my teens and early 20`s, and find that I am more tolerant than I thought, one of my music buddies reckons this is payback for driving him up the wall all those years ago.
:lol:
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Post by Cathy Wilde »

maire wrote:I have very distinct memories of driving my older and wiser music associates mad with my incessant questions and twaddle about what I thought I knew about trad. They very nicely told me to go away and come back when I had something intelligent to say!
I did.
Except now it happens to me all the time with young ones.
On days when I have given up the will to live, I cast my mind back to those times in my teens and early 20`s, and find that I am more tolerant than I thought, one of my music buddies reckons this is payback for driving him up the wall all those years ago.
:lol:
:lol: So true, so true.

I think there's some sort of dues-paying notion behind a lot of this stuff, even though it really doesn't make much sense ..... I certainly feel that way sometimes when the little Pony Clubbers start in with their "I know everything about horses!"

All that energy! Dangit, youth is indeed wasted on the young.
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Post by AaronMalcomb »

Mark's story teaches a valuable lesson. But there were are a couple different factors that impacted the events that led to this discussion.

One difference was that instead of being approached/repreoached in person, the whippersnapper in question (WSIQ) was done so in writing, and very aggressively so. As I pointed out in the initial mélée, if you saw those two carrying on like that in person, it would have been uncomfortable to say the least. But I have a hunch the confrontation would have been much more civil in person. Either way, the confrontation put the WSIQ on the defensive which is the wrong headpsace to be in if your going to learn anything.

A big difference is that the WSIQ was swatted for stating opinions and not for actual playing. And as somebody pointed out in another thread on this topic, the WSIQ is ubiquitous on discussion boards. Somebody who is spending that much time typing has to be sacrificing a lot of time. So unless Avery has dropped out of school or is an insomniac, he can't be doing much playing which is how one truly learns about music.

How else can I flog this dead horse?

(edited for correct verb tense)
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Cathy Wilde
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Post by Cathy Wilde »

Well I thought I was done flogging, and then lo and behold I stumbled across the following while looking for something else.

Then, lo-er and behold-er in a blinding flash of light, etc., I SAW THE CONNECTION.

It's just like .... SESSION ETIQUETTE! To wit:
An Irish "session" is a gathering of musicians (often taking place in a public venue) for the purpose of playing music together.

Playing in a good session can be fun, invaluable playing experience, and a great chance to improve your music--all at the same time. Good sessions can produce some of the best Irish music in the world, and they can do so for hours on end--under the right circumstances.

There is a popular misconception that "The Irish session" is meant to be an open forum, where anybody who can come in off the street is welcome to participate and learn to make music at the same time. In reality, while some sessions may be such open forums, this characteristic is not intrinsic to "the session" itself, and it can be a big mistake to incorrectly assume that it is.

In reality, Irish sessions are much more like other casual social gatherings than they are like open forums. Often, sessions are groups of friends getting together for a few tunes, and not as an open invitation to everyone to come and play. People who come in off the street will usually be welcomed, but they may be met with a certain amount of circumspection until they demonstrate their ability to "play well with others".

Here are some of the bigger mistakes that will alienate your fellow musicians at a typical session (in no particular order):

Playing a percussive instrument poorly, out of turn, too loudly, or generally outside the taste of the other musicians. A good rule of thumb here is: "one bodhran and/or guitar/bouzouki at a time". More than one will often clash, irritating the melody players. In Irish music, the melody is FAR more important than the backing, and backers who assume otherwise can quickly become session-pariahs.

Joining a group of unfamiliar musicians without asking, or without being invited. This is especially important if you think your presence might change the existing dynamic in a way that the musicians don't want it changed. The quality of the music is often what determines how much fun people have. If you ruin their music, you are probably ruining their fun too.

Playing when you don't really know the tune. It's usually ok to do so very quietly, but... be careful! Your wrong notes may distract, and irritate, the person sitting next to you.

Starting too many tunes without consulting the other musicians. It's generally a good idea (especially at an unfamiliar session) to ask the other musicians if they'd like to play a tune before you launch into it. This helps you make sure that you won't be doing something antisocial by starting a tune that the other musicians don't know or don't want to play.

When someone does one of these things at a session, it makes everybody feel uncomfortable. While it might be nice (especially for beginners) if the other musicians would politely inform you, this is difficult to do tactfully, so this isn't usually what happens. Instead, the other musicians are more likely to simply feel irritated and leave it at that.

In general, remember this: If you're not organizing the session, you are a GUEST, and all the same social guidelines apply to your "visit" that would if you walked into someone else's party. Just as you can alienate people by crashing a party and being rude, so too can you alienate them by crashing their session and being rude.

For a more extensive (and unapologetic!) look at the typical Irish session, see Barry Foy's book: Field Guide to the Irish Music Session.

George Keith
Fill in the metaphors.

OK, I'm done now. Off to the bar.
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Post by Danner »

Somebody who is spending that much time typing has to be sacrificing a lot of time. So unless Avery has dropped out of school or is an insomniac, he can't be doing much playing which is how one truly learns about music.
I agree. We should all just shut up and listen and play. Isn't that why we're an "internet community"? Isn't our primary goal to discuss aspects of playing and listening to Irish music? (BTW- I'm even younger than Avery. Insult know-it-alls, not youth.)
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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

Folks, it's not the age, but the mileage one should take into consideration.... trust me on this one. :D
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Cayden

Post by Cayden »

Danner wrote: Isn't our primary goal to discuss aspects of playing and listening to Irish music?
Exactly.

The problem was not youth but the irrepressible urge to speak even when there was nothing to say and no knowledge to back up what was being said. Not only here but on just about every messageboard available on the subject. The fact there was no let off was the real problem.

Most of us just ignored this and let it be although I have heard the behaviour in this case referred to as 'quite grating' in private. Gary obviously thought it time to mention that advice given with regard to purchasing flutes should be taken within context of age and experience. He pulled no punches but was right.

Image

At that point the hint should have been taken and a lower key approach to posting assumed but it wasn't. It was not youth that was insulted but in fact it was being called on know-it-all posting without much knowledge that was at the heart of this matter
Danner wrote:Insult know-it-alls, not youth.
Exactly what happened, only I didn't see a lot of insult.


Time to let this be I think: Image
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Post by Unseen122 »

Time for me to come out of lurking and say something.

First of all, some of you "mature adults" need to do some growing up. If you have a problem with me please send me a PM instead of leaving negative comments on the forum.

On average I spend an hour (actually the length of a CD) on the computer per day. All of that time I am listening to musc, and I only listen to trad. Most of my friends spend 3-4 hours on Instant Messaging, I do not partake in this activity it is a waste of time. I post on a couple forums, this (well not anymore), the smaller Whistle boards whuch are pretty quiet, thesession.org, and the CBOM forum on Mandolin Cafe to disscuss Bouzouki which I am learning to play. I only claim to play Flute, Whistle, Tenor Banjo, and Bassoon (in school). So if that is a "shed load" so be it, the only one I practice with any consistency is Flute.

On average I play Flute an hour per day. There are many Friday nights that I stay home an play Flute until the wee hours of the morning, especially now that my usual crowd is in college. So before we make assumptions, it is best to talk to the person you are assuming things about.

As a contributing memeber of this board, I should have the right to speak my mind, as long as I am not insulting anyone. I understand that experience should be weighed in. Most of you do not realize that i have been performing for 6 years. Age has nothing to do with experience.

BTW, one person on this thread has actually met me in person. That would be Tyghress. Jim Stone has also met me, look at what he says about me.

Like I said, if you want to say something negative, grow up and contact me in private. By posting negative comments you just look like a jerk. Remeber by assuming you make an ass ou of u and me.

I will now go back to lurking.

Edited to fix a typo.
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Post by Joseph E. Smith »

For the love of all that's decent... Avery, you have got to learn when not to say a damned thing.... go to your room!

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