Cnat key vs forked fingering: do keyed fluters ever go back?

[lesl]

In Brendan Breathnach's introduction to Ceol Rince na hÉireann I, there is a section about the C. Terry McGee provided the posting of Breathnach's own translation of the full intro and Nigel Gatherer is hosting is online here:
http://www.nigelgatherer.com/books/CRE/cre1.html

Here's a bit of the relevant section:

"The two notes C and F are also exceptional in another way: they are somewhat sharper than the corresponding notes on the piano. It's said that directly halfway between B and D on that instrument lies the C natural of traditional music, i.e., pipers and fiddlers would play C a quarter note higher than on the piano. " [Breathnach]

Its great, read the whole thing.

I have spent a lot of time doing c exercises in the main 2 fingerings I use, (one finger down and 2 fingers down) in an attempt to get them up to the same level as other intervals - excruciatingly slow as mud playing the c bits of the Gravel Walks and things like bcbcbcbcbc... cbcbcbcbcb..

In Tommy People's reel I use the one finger C from watching Mike, but spent ages at the speed of the clock - 2 beats to a tick, G2BG cGBG G2BG cGBG G2BG cGBG ....

[JS]

Lesl, thanks for posting this info and the link. I'd been wanting learn more about this question of pitch after reading that paragraph in your (terrific) book. I'd found myself doing something similar with the C/C# on fiddle, without knowing why it sounded right to me.

[Casey Burns]

Jeannie,

You might try this fingering for C natural:

OXO XXX

Works in both octaves. Many prefer the slightly flatter

OXX OOO for the 1st octave.

Casey

[Denny]

One of the attributes of Casey's flutes that I have seldom seen mentioned, but greatly appreciate.
OXO XXX works in both octaves.

The attribute that I don't believe I have ever seen, on this board is that there are good fingerings for Bb in both octaves. XOX XXX in the bottom and XOX OXO above.

If you can learn to half hole and F nat you have four keys that are doable.

[johnkerr]

In Irish music there are really three Cs: C natural, C# and C supernatural, which hovers somewhere between C natural and C#. Of course the C supernatural is not possible on fixed-pitch instruments like accordions and concertinas, but it's a favorite note of fiddlers and pipers - especially the old ones. And there are tunes where C natural and C# are pretty much interchangeable, depending on who's playing it. The same thing goes for F natural and F#.

This is why the concept of a perfectly-in-equal-temperament-tuned C natural, which is essential for classical music, is really irrelevant in ITM. Your C natural needs to sound "right", and what's "right" may not necessarily be a perfectly in tune C natural from the classical perspective. As you play and listen more to ITM, you learn what's right by the way it sounds, and you do what you need to on the flute to make it sound that way. This is partly why a lot of players with keyed flutes rarely use their C natural keys, but instead opt for forked fingerings like oxx ooo. The C natural produced by the key may actually be more in tune than the other fingerings, but still sound less right in most tunes. I know on my flute I only use the C natural key for the high octave C and practically never for the low octave. The forked fingering sounds right enough, and I'm used to it from my keyless days, so rather than have to re-learn my fingering patterns I just go with it. On airs or slower tunes, maybe I'll opt to use the key there.

[Denny]

That is quite true in Irish music.

I don't think that the Irish played a lot of Bach.

[peeplj]

I tend to use the oxx|ooo fingering most often, and oxo|xxx for the higher octave.

There are certain places in tunes where I use oxo|xxx in the low octave as well, depends on the tune.

Also I will sometimes use a half-holed C-natural for effect, especially for a slide up into the note.

I don't actually use the C-natural key all that often for C-natural, though I do in a few tunes.

I do use the C-natural key very frequently to bring the 2nd octave C-sharp up to pitch, however. To me, that's where this key really shines.

--James

[Jennie]

Well, it's certainly a relief to be reminded how much there is yet to learn.

Okay, I will attempt to retune my hearing so that the Cnat and C# are not such separate entities. (I guess concertina players have to decide on one or the other, don't they?)

And it sounds like using more expedient fingering on the fast parts is acceptable. So I'll start there.

Is there anyone out there who absolutely LOVES the Cnat key and couldn't do without it? Seems like not. Though of course, after the experts have spoken, some might hesitate to offer a different opinion.

Thank you, all, for the excellent references and comments, and for your tolerance.

Jennie

[pandscarr]

I love all my keys - unpopular as that may sound - and I use them all!

And I especially use my cnat key to bring c# into tune - as James said.

A lot of scottish and scandinavian tunes have accidentals in them which imho really makes them special - the eflat in Roslyn Castle, the fnat in the a part followed by f# in the b part of some swedish tunes - and there are some lovely scottish tunes in flat keys, like Mrs Dundas of Arniston.

I guess it just depends what you want to play - there are lots of players and performers who use their keys.

pamela

[Cathy Wilde]

I don't know if I'd say love, but I'm deeply in like with my Cnat key.

However, I use all C nat fingerings too, plus one John showed me that I haven't seen here ...

OXX OXX

I can't tell you how often I go to this one; I think it's the easiest because you can leave RH 3 & 4 down on lots of other notes, too.

... So talk about lazy!!!

Anyway, it varies from flute to flute, mood to mood, tune to tune. You just do whatever works; that's why on keyed flutes you have 2 F keys. Some passages just don't work one way or the other.

For 2nd octave, I like OXO OOO or the Cnat key, but again, it depends on the context.

[Denny]

Old Boehm players...

how many fingers do I really need to move?

Seriously though...(oh dear, what is the fool doing now)
The lower hand ring and index fingers can be left down for C# through B. Again, it depends on where you came from and where you are going, note wise.
It also helps keep the flute stable.

[SoTX]

I don't have a keyed flute, so perhaps shouldn't answer, but that won't stop me.

OXX XOX is useful first because it gives an in-tune C in the first octave (for those occasions where you want one) and allows a middle-finger tap to D, which sounds like a cut. That's useful in the last section of Gravelwalk, for instance.

In the upper register I sometimes use the recorder fingering XXO XXO. It doesn't go quite high enough on a Pratten; there I use OXO OOO mostly.

Note that F-F# is a "blue" note in D. (C-C# is the same in A.) That is, in a blues scale it is indeterminate and frequently messed with. It's interesting to see something similar happening in Irish trad.

-- Don

[Cathy Wilde]

Old Boehm players...

how many fingers do I really need to move?

Seriously though...(oh dear, what is the fool doing now)
The lower hand ring and index fingers can be left down for C# through B. Again, it depends on where you came from and where you are going, note wise.
It also helps keep the flute stable.

That's what I'm talking about, baby!

XO!

[Jumbuk]

Thanks Jennie for posting this question - I was wondering about it as well.

I should preface this by saying I am a beginner, with just under a year under my belt. I have a Burns folk flute and a Sweet 6-key. When I got the Sweet, I wasn't sure whether to start using the Cnat key or not. My major worry was that I would stop using the cross fingered options and become too dependent on the keyed flute. There are times (eg travel) when I only want to take a keyless with me.

Also, I wondered if anyone used the OXXXOX fingering. This was the first one I learned, and I find it easier than the OXXOOO, particularly coming down from d. Everyone else I talked to seemed to use just the second fingering. Good to see that I am not entirely on the wrong track.

My take on all of this: it pays to experiment and learn all the options if you can.