Embouchure undercutting

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:56 pm

The top Boehm flute makers really have embouchures down to a science, and many are quite secretive about it: In some cases going as far as keeping employees who work on headjoints segregated from those who do other operations, and forbidding them (legally) from disclosing any of the hows or whys of the headjoint/embouchure making process and specs, to anyone, even other employees within the company.

But then that's to be expected, it's a very competitive industry, with everyone looking for an edge.

Loren

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:46 pm

Loren wrote:But then that's to be expected, it's a very competitive industry, with everyone looking for an edge.

Loren

Quite literally!

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:12 pm

So if one wants to (repeatably) cut an embouchure at 7 degrees, or ones favorite angle, how does one do it? If a degree makes a real difference, I wouldn't think freehand would do it, and I haven't seen too many CNC machines in flute shops. Is there a hardened steel template with angled edges, or a 7 degree mill or something?

BMFW · Post by **BMFW** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:26 am

Doug_Tipple wrote:With embouchures cut by hand you can expect some variation from flute to flute, even from the same maker.

This is why I believe that truly great flutes can only come from makers who can blow accurately and consistantly and therefore test their own work before it goes to a customer. It's no secret that Chris Wilkes spends an inordinate amount of time making such tiny adjustments after many would consider a flute finished and ready to ship. It is arguable whether the majority of customers could find any noticeable difference, but such is the pride of a truly great craftsmen, one assumes.

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:49 am

BMFW wrote:
Doug_Tipple wrote:With embouchures cut by hand you can expect some variation from flute to flute, even from the same maker.
This is why I believe that truly great flutes can only come from makers who can blow accurately and consistantly and therefore test their own work before it goes to a customer. It's no secret that Chris Wilkes spends an inordinate amount of time making such tiny adjustments after many would consider a flute finished and ready to ship. It is arguable whether the majority of customers could find any noticeable difference, but such is the pride of a truly great craftsmen, one assumes.

Bah. You seem to be implying that a truly great flute requires a maker who understands not only the mundane workaday trivia of his or her trade, such as wood- and metal-working, but also a detailed knowledge of how miniscule adjustments can and will affect the flutey goodness of the final product.

Also, you seem to be implying that a great flute requires that the maker has the ability and understanding necessary to play the instrument well, well enough to make those miniscule adjustments. And not only that, to include all this attention to detail routinely, as if it were some kind of Quality Process to produce consistently superlative instruments which may be relied upon to perform, flute after flute.

Pfft. If that were really true, then no-one would be able to call such things as Hall Crystal Flutes "great", would they? And surely 'awesome' would be right out. Besides, wasn't there a big thread on the whistle board about this, 'I don't play 'em, I just make 'em?'

Again I say bah.

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:57 am

GaryKelly wrote:Also, you seem to be implying that a great flute requires that the maker has the ability and understanding necessary to play the instrument well, well enough to make those miniscule adjustments. And not only that, to include all this attention to detail routinely, as if it were some kind of Quality Process to produce consistently superlative instruments which may be relied upon to perform, flute after flute.

It would be a little worrying to buy a flute from somebody who could play one well, I always think of the car analogy; would you buy a sportscar made by someone who could drive?

I only bought my McNotChud after he demonstrated he couldn't play a note...

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:24 am

treeshark wrote:I only bought my McNotChud after he demonstrated he couldn't play a note...

A fact which had as much effect on your good lady as trying to stop a truck by throwing frozen peas at it, as I recall. And of course, Paddy doesn't undercut his embouchure holes, particularly on the hole-less bogoak model. He agrees with the school of thought that "there really is no "proper" angle" for undercutting, and since someone told him Rockstro was an old f*rt and not only that, dead, he prefers to carve his own inimitable path ignoring all around him. It keeps his art pure. Or so I heard.

BMFW · Post by **BMFW** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:44 am

GaryKelly wrote:Besides, wasn't there a big thread on the whistle board about this, 'I don't play 'em, I just make 'em?'

I wouldn't know - I try not to stray over to that particular board, full of those vulgar individuals to attempt to make "music" out of scaffolding tubes. They probably eat Scoth Eggs as well - common as muck!

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:36 am

Ummm...Scotch Eggs. Now you've made me want to go play shaky egg, but I'll wake up the wife and kid which isn't advisable.

Eric

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:52 am

Hey I've a really cool idea we can post pictures of our undercuts. It's easy to do just make sure you cut the flute directly through the center of the emboucher before you scan it.
Here's my Wilkes:

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:12 am

Now, Treeshark, people are going to take you seriously and start sawing on their new flutes, just to take a photo. I can understand that artists may be inclined to do such things, but that kind of activity is not for "normal" people.

Speaking of the seven degree angle suggested for the embouchure in this thread, do you see anything that is even close to a seven degree angle in the photo? I don't.

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:20 am

Never fear Mr Tipple I hope nobody is that daft! ... but there again..
The 7 degrees? Well both my wooden flutes appear to be around the 40 to 45 degree mark.

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:37 am

Are you sure that's a section through the embouchure and not one of the tone-holes, treeshark? I tried it on my ironwood McNotChud but the electric carving knife broke. I should've known what he meant when he said it had a 'strong hard low D'. When I get back from the hospital I'll see if I can measure the undercut on a Hall Crystal Flute, it's a great flute, but I may be some time getting the results (the egg-slicer is all I have left in the kitchen to do the job now).

Yours eye, etc.

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:29 am

GaryKelly wrote: I tried it on my ironwood McNotChud but the electric carving knife broke.

Oh, for playing out loud! You're supposed to use a "light sectioning microscope" or a microtombe at least...no wonder you're short on kitchen utensils......

anniemcu · Post by **anniemcu** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:31 am

hmmm.... "mini carving drill kit".... plus currently extremely unplayable wooden flute from questionable manufacturer... hmmm.... could elicit some interesting results... and some colorful language... hmmm ... and maybe some fine kindling...

I must finish the case first... I must finish the case first...