Opinion on blackwood keyless makers for $1000 USD or less...

[Denny]

<snip>.... it is very hard to seperate the wheat from the chaff as everyone seems to be an expert on the web.

Or the Chiff, as it were.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Hummm!

Chaff & Frapple anyone?

[Cathy Wilde]

Chuff and Bother?

[dow]

CHiff and Hot Sauce.

[jim stone]

Far more important is blowing at EXACTLY the same edge and wall; this means not only the same flute, but also the flute held the same way and assembled exactly the same way. I put small pieces of tape with reference marks on my wooden flutes- I can feel the difference if I'm a mm or two off. This would imply that staying with ANY one flute (assuming a well cut embouchure and reasonable tuning) Boehm or simple system, is far more important to developing while a beginner than which flute.

Absolutely true. Before I continue, the obligatory statement of experience: 17 years of flute playing.
Much of the time on this board is spent lusting after various flutes--much less time, proportionally, is spent talking about the music being played on these flutes. I'm guilty of this, too. But ultimately, the flute is simply a tool (hence the term instrument) to express the music--the music doesn't come from the flute, it comes from the player. As one gets more advanced (and I'm thinking in terms of around decade or more of playing), differences between flutes become more important to the player. But for those first ten years or so, assuming the flute has a well cut embouchure and a good scale, the player is set. What remains is to learn to control the instrument well enough to make good music--the goal all along.

Yah, Chris Norman said at a workshop that it finally occurred to him
that what matters is the music, the flute is merely an instrument.
He said this was an important moment in his evolution as a
musician.

Perhaps if/ when I play for ten years I'll feel differently, but
I continue to think that playing different flutes can be
helpful. Obviously one shouldn't do it right away.
But after a year or so, when one has an embouchure and
some control. For instance, shifting to the Byrne two years in
has really helped me as a musician, IMO, because it was
far more demanding than anything I had played before.
My embouchure has improved considerably more than if
I had stayed with what I was playing, which was in tune
and had a well cut embouchure. There are some flutes
recommended here which are worth owning, but I don't
think playing one of them, and nothing else, for a decade is a
good idea.

The instrument one has at the beginning may suit one at
the beginning better than does the instrument one should
be playing a couple of years in.

Also flutes in different keys are very helpful, especially
higher keys, in developing embouchure.

And none of this is all or nothing--it isn't as though if one learns
about flutes one doesn't learn about music. To the contrary,
one learns everything and different things complement one another.
It isn't as though learning about flutes, what they are, what
they do, their history, is a bad thing or detracts from one's
understanding of anything else.

The point, I think, is to find a middle path between FLOA,
which I agree with you is real and a menace, and an approach that may
be too austere. But doubtless I'll think as you do if I'm playing
in seven years.

[tin tin]

The point, I think, is to find a middle path between FLOA,
which I agree with you is real and a menace, and an approach that may
be too austere.

True, Jim.
My main point is simply that instruments do not substitute for musicianship. Of course, as you point out, certain instruments can aid in musical development. However, I get the sense that many of us think that having a new XYZ flute will help overcome the hurdles we're experiencing with our current flute. But that's a likely falacy, if the current flute has the aformentioned well cut embouchure and good scale.

[Cathy Wilde]

John Skelton once told us, at a workshop, that we should
play only one d flute, so as to get the most out of it.
I said: 'But you're a professional; we're amateurs.'
I should also have said, 'We're beginners.' John has forgotten
more about flutes than I'll ever know, and he's in a position
to zero in on one flute, the right one. But at the time
I'd never even played a Rudall-type flute and I did
want to know what they are and do.

Oooh, I swore I wouldn't speak for him ... but I can't help myself! I've been fortunate to take lessons from Mr. Skelton off and on for close to 4 years, and this topic has come up more than a few times as I've gone through the process of "flute-finding." (Suffice it to say he knows full well what "Uh-oh, guess what I did" means)

Anyway, a few points ... professional versus amateur has got little to do with it. Before settling on the Fabulous Olwell only about 5 years ago, John basically played the same D flute for nearly 20 years -- in other words, he went from hard-working amateur to hard-working professional on the same instrument. His point about playing one flute is about the value of learning a flute inside and out, and learning how to get the sound you want out of that flute, rather than wasting a lot of time and energy flipping from instrument to instrument.

Bottom line, the flute is not the magic bullet. What you get from the process of trying to learn to play it is.

That said, he's told me on several occasions there's nothing wrong with looking for "one that suits" (i.e. one that fits your hands, playing style, playing situation, etc.), and if doesn't suit, "sending it on."

But there comes a point where you need to quit looking for the answer outside yourself and just play what you've got, and play it as well as you can ... because no matter what you're playing, the longer you play it the better you (and it, by extension) will get.

In fact, he recently said that after 5 years he feels like he's getting to know his Olwell. And this man plays for hours and hours and hours a week.

At present he plays a Casey Burns Bb, a Copley, and his Olwell, with several new Olwell bodies (corps de rechange for his D flute).

Several price points there, and widely varied blowholes, bore sizes, fingerhole sizes/placements, design philosophies, sonorities, sets of quirks, etc. .... but he makes all of them sound like a million bucks because he plays the heck out of them until HE can play THEM the way HE wants.

In other words, he figures them out. And the process of doing that is, in large part, what makes him such a great player.

So I think it's pretty simple. Get a working, functional instrument that's the best you can afford (any of the known makers is usually a pretty safe bet). Then glue it to your hands for a few years (i.e., play it a LOT). Eventually, you'll refine what you prefer and either get an instrument that suits you better, or you'll become brilliant in spite of it -- i.e., so good the instrument will hardly make a difference (at least not to the people who hear you play).

Now if I could only take the sage's advice! (in other words, watch this space ... flute sale coming soon )

[Loren]

Good post Cat!

Man, for those of you who haven't heard John Skelton's playing, you really are missing something. Any idea when he's got something new coming out, Cat?

Loren

[chas]

That said, he's told me on several occasions there's nothing wrong with looking for "one that suits" (i.e. one that fits your hands, playing style, playing situation, etc.), and if doesn't suit, "sending it on."

Thank you for saying that. I was going to point out that if I'd blindly followed the advice to just stick with one flute from the beginning, I wouldn't be playing now. Fortunately, about the third flute I found suited me.

[Cathy Wilde]

<snip>Any idea when he's got something new coming out, Cat?

Loren

Weeeeellllllll .... funny you should ask, 'cos we're all wondering, too. He and Kieran O'Hare and Liz Knowles were FANTASTIC at the Cincy Irish Fest last fall ... and when we asked him if they might consider recording something together, he just kind of smiled. Anyway, a couple other things made us wonder, but it would be speculation on my part, and I don't want to turn idle speculation into false rumor.

So if I EVER get to get over there for another lesson, I'll ask him. Failing that, maybe in St. Louis next month.

Argh, I have so many kind of big questions for him. Plus, I wanna get "our" Eb over there, and he still hasn't seen your flute's sister yet, either.

Hopefully soon .... !

[kkrell]

Good post Cat!

Man, for those of you who haven't heard John Skelton's playing, you really are missing something. Any idea when he's got something new coming out, Cat?

Loren

Meow.

John & Kieran were working on a 2nd Double-Barrelled CD. Originally it was thought that they would begin last June, and a track from Kieran would come out of that for WFO3. However, they'd both like to come up with a great selection of tunes for their next CD and this requires some thought.

Kevin Krell

[Unseen122]

I think we are all saying the same thing. When you find the Flute that suits you really well from the beginning keep it. Nothing wrong with trying out different Flutes to find what suits you best. Now everyone here has probably reccommended someone atleast once to try before they buy, now if we could all do that there would not be as much Flute trading going on, of course people change and Flutes don't.

[Cathy Wilde]

Good post Cat!

Man, for those of you who haven't heard John Skelton's playing, you really are missing something. Any idea when he's got something new coming out, Cat?

Loren

Meow.

John & Kieran were working on a 2nd Double-Barrelled CD. Originally it was thought that they would begin last June, and a track from Kieran would come out of that for WFO3. However, they'd both like to come up with a great selection of tunes for their next CD and this requires some thought.

Kevin Krell

Purrrrrrrrr....

[Loren]

Weeeeellllllll .... funny you should ask, 'cos we're all wondering, too. He and Kieran O'Hare and Liz Knowles were FANTASTIC at the Cincy Irish Fest last fall ... and when we asked him if they might consider recording something together, he just kind of smiled. Anyway, a couple other things made us wonder, but it would be speculation on my part, and I don't want to turn idle speculation into false rumor.

So if I EVER get to get over there for another lesson, I'll ask him. Failing that, maybe in St. Louis next month.

Argh, I have so many kind of big questions for him. Plus, I wanna get "our" Eb over there, and he still hasn't seen your flute's sister yet, either.

Hopefully soon .... !

Well, I'm sure John is going to rock that Eb one way or the other, and I suspect you're not going to want to part with it after hearing him blast away on it.

I'm sure it will be equally interesting to hear him play your boxwood baby. As an aside, I'm finding mine is much happier when I DON'T keep it humidified - but then that's unsealed Boxwood for ya Once I get back into the workshop I'm going to have to seal the bore, because all the swelling is driving me nuts. If you ever get to the point where you're having too many problems with your baby, let me know - I suspect summer will be the acid test for your Boxwood flute, and by then I expect to have mine well sealed.

Good to hear (from both you and Kevin) that John is at least considering some more recording, as he's one guy that has far too little (recent) stuff available for listening. I assume that damn house has been taking up all his spare time between lessons and clinics

Loren

[jim stone]

John Skelton once told us, at a workshop, that we should
play only one d flute, so as to get the most out of it.
I said: 'But you're a professional; we're amateurs.'
I should also have said, 'We're beginners.' John has forgotten
more about flutes than I'll ever know, and he's in a position
to zero in on one flute, the right one. But at the time
I'd never even played a Rudall-type flute and I did
want to know what they are and do.

Oooh, I swore I wouldn't speak for him ... but I can't help myself! I've been fortunate to take lessons from Mr. Skelton off and on for close to 4 years, and this topic has come up more than a few times as I've gone through the process of "flute-finding." (Suffice it to say he knows full well what "Uh-oh, guess what I did" means)

Anyway, a few points ... professional versus amateur has got little to do with it. Before settling on the Fabulous Olwell only about 5 years ago, John basically played the same D flute for nearly 20 years -- in other words, he went from hard-working amateur to hard-working professional on the same instrument. His point about playing one flute is about the value of learning a flute inside and out, and learning how to get the sound you want out of that flute, rather than wasting a lot of time and energy flipping from instrument to instrument.

Bottom line, the flute is not the magic bullet. What you get from the process of trying to learn to play it is.

That said, he's told me on several occasions there's nothing wrong with looking for "one that suits" (i.e. one that fits your hands, playing style, playing situation, etc.), and if doesn't suit, "sending it on."

But there comes a point where you need to quit looking for the answer outside yourself and just play what you've got, and play it as well as you can ... because no matter what you're playing, the longer you play it the better you (and it, by extension) will get.

In fact, he recently said that after 5 years he feels like he's getting to know his Olwell. And this man plays for hours and hours and hours a week.

At present he plays a Casey Burns Bb, a Copley, and his Olwell, with several new Olwell bodies (corps de rechange for his D flute).

Several price points there, and widely varied blowholes, bore sizes, fingerhole sizes/placements, design philosophies, sonorities, sets of quirks, etc. .... but he makes all of them sound like a million bucks because he plays the heck out of them until HE can play THEM the way HE wants.

In other words, he figures them out. And the process of doing that is, in large part, what makes him such a great player.

So I think it's pretty simple. Get a working, functional instrument that's the best you can afford (any of the known makers is usually a pretty safe bet). Then glue it to your hands for a few years (i.e., play it a LOT). Eventually, you'll refine what you prefer and either get an instrument that suits you better, or you'll become brilliant in spite of it -- i.e., so good the instrument will hardly make a difference (at least not to the people who hear you play).

Now if I could only take the sage's advice! (in other words, watch this space ... flute sale coming soon )

I do appreciate your/John's point, but let me continue to disagree.
I sure don't think a new flute is the 'magic bullet,' or that I
will find the secret of flute playing 'outside myself.' I'm not
into 'flipping from instrument to instrument,' and I'm certainly
not into wasting time, not having much left.

Right now I've received an 1832 Rudall (I think) sold in NY
as an Atwill. I got it, not find the magic bullet, etc, but
to understand these flutes and to see what they do.
I'm learning an extraordinary amount about
flutes from it, about how they evolved and were tuned and how
the keys can be used in playing in pitch. Above all this is the
first flute I've had to 'play in tune,' it's extraordinarily
demanding, and my embouchure has improved in the
last several days more than it has in the last six months.

When John advised me to play only one flute, I had never
played a Rudall, nor had I played a real Pratten. I ordered
one of both, not to find a magic bullet or to seek the answer
outside myself, but to find out what these flutes are and
what they do. I think it would have been a mistake
not to do that, expecially because the Rudall I got (a Byrne)
has made me a much better player than I would have
been if I had stuck with the adequate flute I was playing
before.

If I had followed john's advice I would still be playing my
first flute, not a bad one by any means, but one that
never made the demands on me that these later flutes
made, I should be much less good than I am, because
playing these other flutes has improved me a lot more
than sticking with the original would have, I would
know far less about flutes than I do, and I would
understand them less well. Now, three years
and change in, I'm in a position to start to pare down.

I think there is a false dichotomy operating here:
either one sticks with one's flute, supposing it's not bad, etc.
or one is looking for a magic bullet, etc. I did neither,
I got to know and understand flutes, both as somebody
who plays em and as somebody who studies em.
I've explored flutes (not a whole lot but some)
and I think I play better for it.

[SoTX]

To become the best possible musician, perhaps one has to explore the possibilities of just one flute. I played one oboe for over ten years, and never found all that was there, although together we got into an Air Force band and avoided the Vietnam draft.

Some of us, I think, are fascinated by acoustic machinery. Flutes and electronic oscillators are closely related; much of the math is the same. "Acoustic impedence" is all the rage among theorists. Still, far more is known about electronic circuits than about acoustic ones. There are degrees in electrical engineering but not acoustic engineering, as far as I know. Music speaks directly to the emotions, and in my shop I can fashion a stick of wood so that it can be used to make music. Magic!

To become the best possible musician, perhaps one must explore one flute. I no longer even want to be the best possible musician, but to enjoy being the musician I can while keeping my day job, and I refuse to love only one flute. I do this for fun.

-- Don