Some Thoughts On "Tradition"

[WyoBadger]

Good afternoon, everybody.

I've been thinking about initiating a discussion about this for some time, since I've seen the issue come up in several different threads in the past few months. It's common for people to make comments to the affect that, to really "get" Irish music, one must immerse oneself in the culture, learn the music by listening in person (not from a book), even make frequent pilgrammages to Ireland.

What finally prompted me to write was a comment in the SLC soundfile thread that, by paying more attention to having fun than to technical excellence, we were "doing the tradition a disservice." While such ignorant insults roll off my back, it did get me thinking about this topic again. Here is how I responded:

On 2002-08-06 00:41, WyoBadger wrote:
Nevertheless, (s)he brings up an interesting point.

We're doing what tradition a disservice? I, for one, am not all that interested in recreating the "Irish" tradition--it's a magnificent tradition, but recreating it here just isn't possible. This isn't Ireland. Different culture, different place, different values.

My ancestors were mostly Scottish and Irish; but I'm just an American who likes Irish and Scottish music. Nothing more, nothing less. Rather than strive for some unattainable replication of a wonderful but foreign tradition, I put my own take on the tunes and make them my own. My playing still has far to go, but I can't think of a better compliment to the Irish culture than to incorporate parts of it into my own.

We've sort of started our own tradition, and we enjoy it. If you can manage to stow the elitism and come join us sometime, you might find out why.

I forget who said it, but it still rings true: "Why be a second rate version of someone else when you can be a first rate version of yourself?"

Of course, the traditional purists have a point. A true musician is always striving to improve, technically and otherwise. If I had access to more true Irish musicians, I would learn whatever I could. The music of Ireland is, in my opinion, rivaled only by the sadly neglected music of Scotland for sheer depth and heart, and it deserves to be preserved and carried into the future.

But my music culture is not Ireland. It is Wyoming, home of real cowboy/ranch music (which, like the ranching lifestyle, seems to be sadly dying out). The Indian Pow wow tradition is alive and well. Lots of other styles have been imported. None of them grew here. But they belong here, to the extent that the people belong here.

Since the current dominant culture just hasn't lived here all that long (and it's an extremely mixed bag anyway, from rich eco-yuppies to impoverished res Indians), a true homogenous music culture has not been formed. In other words, "Wyoming Music" just doesn't mean much. The way people come and go nowadays, it probably won't in the foreseeable future.

So, our tradition is sort of for everyone to bring what they have to the pot; if it fits the recipe, they throw it in. If not, find another pot. A whistled jig that fits in with a didgeridoo and an Arapahoe chant? If it sounds good, why not? A bunch of people who decide they only want to play Irish trad? Great! Just don't be surprised when Uncle Ray shows up with his harmonica.

I'll look forward to your comments. (remember, be REASONABLE)

Tom

[Sean]

I'm glad you brought this topic up. The idea of maintainiing ITrad as a pure form is a fairly corrupt notion in the first place IMHO. First of all over how many centuries do most of the songs' origins span? A couple at least, so wouldn't it stand to reason that that idea of musical integrity evolved as people moved not only around the island, but also on and off of it. Now I understand that there is a core of musicallity that instantly cues one into the fact that one is listening to Irish music. However, music Even Traditional Music evolves and most certainly individual players evolve. I mean look at the variety of artists that The Cheiftans have performed with over the years. I can't fathom that their playing wasn't influenced to some degree by those artists as they discovered what dissparate ethnic sounds actually sounded good together.
I like ITrad, and I like the idea that it is a culturally isolated sound, but to say that someone is doing a "disservice to the tradition" is silly. If the Traditional sound wasn't integrated at some point with other sounds it would't have become so emotionally accessible to the larger woldwide culture, and wouldn't have sparked a renaissance of awareness in it's roots. Now surely there are those who will subscribe to the isolationist ideology that it is by and for the founders of the genre, but I would have to say that isn't there enough bigotry in the greater portion of our lives without applying it to music as well?
Thanks Tom, This is indeed a relevant and interesting topic, and to everyone else I apologise for the rambling diatribe.
Sean

P.S.
Look at Chris Ledoux, still rodeo music, but not what I would call "traditional"

[susnfx]

Beautifully (and reasonably)stated, Tom. I, too, have wondered about certain types of music not being "allowed" by the purists. At the moment I'm specifically thinking of music by O'Carolan which is discussed occasionally on this board. Some think it should never be played at sessions; others think it's okay to play an occasional O'Carolan tune. Personally, I find many of his songs beautiful and play a lot of them (I also find they're accepted by my family more readily than some jigs/reels/etc.), and I think it's a shame to denigrate his music and give beginners, especially, the idea that his music isn't "true" or "proper." Same goes for any other type of music - Brian's and Stephanie's rendition of the Star Wars theme at our RMS was great and added a lot of fun - nothing wrong with that.
Again, very well said.
Susan

[avanutria]

On 2002-08-06 16:03, susnfx wrote:
Brian's and Stephanie's rendition of the Star Wars theme at our RMS was great and added a lot of fun...

I just want to step in and claim partial responsibility for the travesty that was 'Uilleann Star Wars'

[DazedinLA]

Reasonable Citizen Dazed Reporting for Duty!!!

Human nature is a wonderful and frustrating thing...we often are driven simultaneously by the seemingly incompatible imperatives to embrace and preserve the continuity of our heritage and traditions, yet also to transcent the stagnating bonds of convention, to reach out, improvise, improve and evolve.

I have a deep respect for those who value tradition, and who strive to preserve its integrity, for how can we have proper perspective of where we are going unless you clearly know where we have been? I therefore have never judged those who regard IrTrad traditional music, styles and techniques with intense earnestness and reverance.

I am saddened, however, when I hear IrTrad Acolytes cast aspersions on anything that violates the Commandments of the Pure Drop. Maybe its just me, but I regard the prime purpose of IrTrad music, as any music, as being to bring joy and happiness to all who hear it, and certianly to all who play it. And so when you hear the clips of the SLC, and you hear what a great time they had sharing their lives and their music, well, its hard to imagine that the "Tradition" is better served by a purist Acolyte sitting alone in his hermitage slavishly practicing the Pure Drop to attain a state of "worthiness", than by this group getting together and having a good time.

Besides, so many great musical "traditions" have evolved from Irtrad and brought happinesss to people...hey, bluegrass, Afro-celt, in my book its all good.

I also am humbled with private conjectures that might shatter how we assume the "Greats" would behave if they were here today. Mozart would probably be writing Hollywood soundtracks, chasing J Lo and gigging with Lord Knows Who. Perhaps Michael Coleman would have already cut a duet album with Eric Clapton or Bob Dylan. And, at the risk of treading dangeous ground, if Jesus were here today, I personally believe that his actions in todays world, the people with whom he would associate and the actions he would take to express himself, would probably surprise (and perhaps disturb) us as much as they surprised and disturbed his biblical contemporaries. I think its dangerous to put anyone or anything on a pedastle (anyone other than Nigella, that is:).

I say that unless people set up a real live gigging demanding money for each gig kind of BAND that purports to be of a particular musical persuasion or tradition (and then screws it up or just plain sucks musically despite what they hold themselves out to be), then I think that anything that gets people together playing and enjoying music is a service to us all.

Reasonably Yours,
Citizen Dazed

P.S. My Dad was raised in Laramie, and while his musical tastes have strong folk leanings, he also has a wonderful mixed pot kind of love for music. He met my mom while teaching a folk dancing class, which in the 50's seems unusual, since he's 100% Chinese, but he was always accepted. IrTrad, Scottish, Russian, Folk, Cowboy, Native American, Early American Country, all were in the mix of what he grew up with, and anyone who rode a high horse in their pursuit or appreciation of one particular tradition the them parts in them days usually rode alone.
_________________
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/whistleannex/index.html">The Whistle Annex</a>, Home of the Chiffboard Matrix

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DazedinLA on 2002-08-06 16:51 ]</font>

[Isilwen]

In my opinion,

pure Irtrad has it's place. However, you can take a traditional tune and make it your own without "disrupting" the "pureness" of the tradition.

Isn't that what some of the greatest Trad musicians do?

*sits back and calmly waits for flamers.... *

[Tyghress]

I don't think there will be any flaming over what has been posted here.

My contribution to this thread is to relay what was said to me by an old timer in Ireland, who maintained that the WORST thing to happen to traditional Irish music, in his opinion, was Michael Coleman. He said that since Coleman's recordings came around, everyone is trying to sound alike, and the heart of the music was destroyed, and the styles that good musicians would develop were lost.

I don't think I'm as adamant about it, but he doesn't have a point.

[Brian Lee]

Well put one and all. Tom, thank you for opening a topic to shed light on this most important topic. I'd like to appologize if I was out of place in my response to Celto-whoever-it-was that said we sounded terrible.

I had a wonderful time. My friends had a wonderful time, and as Tyghress' inquiry into what "craic" really was has developed, I think we cal safely say we were about as pure drop Itrad as it gets in that respect!

I plan on playing till the day I die. I may very well play poorly till the day I die too, but I'm going to do it with a SMILE, and THAT'S what's truly important. If I can make anybody else's life just that small bit brighter by playing a silly tune, like Star Wars on the pipes, then I'm gonna DO it.

There. I said it. I'd say it again if I had to!

Love to all!!!!

Bri~

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Brian Lee on 2002-08-07 09:28 ]</font>

[Redwolf]

Good response, WyoBadger. I have to add that, if the people who wrote some of these old tunes were to hear someone spouting off about the "purity" of the "tradition," they'd be laughing (or perhaps crying) into their Guinness. Before the word "traditional" became the rage, we used to call this sort of thing folk music. It was music written, by and large, by "real" people for "real" people in "real" situations, passed along from father to son, mother to daughter, neighbor to neighbor, as the needs and wants of "real" life dictated. It was expected that each person who played or sang a tune would put something of his or herself into it...make it his or her own. To say that one must play "this in that manner" or it's not "purely traditional" is ludicrous. I bet if you could get an Irish musician from 200 years ago in the same room with an Irish "Traditional" musician of today, they'd barely recognize each other's music.

For myself, I've never attempted to be true to any particular "tradition." I play what I like, in the manner that sounds best to my ear. I'm not an Irish musician...I'm a Scots-Irish-German-American-living-in- California musician who sings Palestrina and Bach and plain chant on Sundays and Wednesdays, teaches American, English, Irish and Israeli folk tunes to kids on Tuesdays, and listens to everything from Peter, Paul and Mary, to The Moody Blues, to the Huddersfield Choral Society in the car. Whenever I play ANYTHING, be it Irish "Trad" or my own noodling, THAT's the background that informs my playing. A good "traditional" musician wouldn't have it any other way .

(BTW, did you know that plain chant sounds REALLY nice on the whistle?)

Redwolf

[Caoimhin]

The few things i think need to be kept on is heart, soul and fun. In whatever form they may be.

[Walden]

I am a strong believer in traditional music. I find it sad that our tradition, American, English, Scottish, Canadian, Welsh, et al, of balladry, fiddle tunes, and so forth is being forgotten in favor of soon forgotten radio stars such as Menudo, New Kids on the Block, Hanson, etc.

On the other hand, the introduction of tinwhistles, accordions, guitars, mandolins, bouzouki, and such instruments now widely used in "Celtic" music are relatively late arrivals, having come along in the 19th and 20th Centuries. Yet they have not harmed the music (not in and of themselves anyway). Simply new voices are singing the old songs.

Sometimes people worry that the new voices will destroy the delicate music, but the new voices blend with the old to carry the tradition into the future. And the tradition lives on.

[BrassBlower]

On 2002-08-07 03:40, Redwolf wrote:
I'm a Scots-Irish-German-American-living-in- California musician who sings Palestrina and Bach and plain chant on Sundays and Wednesdays, teaches American, English, Irish and Israeli folk tunes to kids on Tuesdays, and listens to everything from Peter, Paul and Mary, to The Moody Blues, to the Huddersfield Choral Society in the car.

(BTW, did you know that plain chant sounds REALLY nice on the whistle?)

Redwolf

Speaking of the Moody Blues, Ray Thomas' flute solo in the bridge section of "Nights in White Satin" can be played in almost the exact same tone on a Dixon low G.

As you can tell, I'm not a trad purist, either!

[WyoBadger]

Thanks for the comments.

One thing I want to make very clear is that I'm not getting down on the traditionalists. I love Irish Trad, and if there were not those dedicated to carrying on the tradition I would not have that luxury. I'd love to sit down for a couple days with someone deeply steeped in the tradition and just soak up the lore, technique, and wisdom of the music.

Furthermore, I'm hoping that some of our traditionalists will chime in on this thread--I never said that my way was the only way to look at the issue; I'd really like your perspective.

Walden sort of hits the big problem on the head. Here in the states we've become so enamoured with listening to the music of the elite few that we've forgotten how to make our OWN music--plus it's just a lot easier and safer to turn on the idiot box than it is to actually do something. If anything will kill an old tradition or prevent a new one from forming, it's the idea that acceptable music exists only in the past, or in Ireland, or Hollywood, or anywhere else other than my own living room.

I believe that "good music" is a bit like "a good adventure": Everyone gets to write his own definition. So I say throw caution to the wind and play, as well and as expertly as you can, yes, practice, practice, practice and all that (I AM a music teacher, after all), but PLAY!

Tom

[burnsbyrne]

I think tradition can be viewed as hindrance or help. Some think that tradition stifles creativity with a knee-jerk acceptance of anything that is old. I prefer to view tradition as a platform providing a framework for expression and as a contrast to the innovations that are inevitable in any art form. For example, the French impressionist painters of the 19th century defied the conventions of the day. However, it was the contrast between the work of the impressionists and the traditionalists that gave impressionism its impact. Impressionism would not have had as much impact if it were not for the tradition. However, all of the impressionists displayed in their youthful work that they fully understood and had mastered the tradition.

The point I wanted to make is that tradition is a starting point that allows each new generation not to have to reinvent the wheel. Should we know the traditional ways? Yes. Should we follow them blindly, never straying from the path? No. But if you do stray, you can expect criticism from some and congratulations from others.

Mike

Edited for crummy writing

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: burnsbyrne on 2002-08-07 11:57 ]</font>

[Ron Rowe]

Well, I do love pure drop, so I will pipe up as Tom requested. The thing aabout trad that seems to me anyway to be forgotten, is that before the last century, everything was played in a regional style, there was a distinctive sound to the tunes in say clare for example, and another distinctive style of playing in say cork. Now just for agument sake lets say a tune was originated in cork and someone took it along with them to clare.If it became popular in clare it would more than likely be adapted to the clare style of playing. Would it still be trad if it was adapted to a different playing style?
If your answer is yes, then I don't see how adaptations made by american players would be any different than ones made by clare players, same tune different regional style. Most Irish Americans still think of Ireland as home, and those who play trad and aren't irish wish they were(BG). I just see it as another regional style even if the region is a bit far from the motherland.
What I have a problem with is all these Celtic Moonlight, Celtic Starlight, Celtic I'm gonna puke in the Boyne if I hear 1 more insipid rendition of Only her rivers run free cd's that they sell as mood music in wal-mart's and k-marts across the country.
Did I ramble enough for you Tom?

Ron