dow wrote:My O'Whatzizname unstained balsawood E-triple-sharp-minor keyless holeless flute drives like a hippopotamous on rails.
Does O'Whatzizname have a web site? And does he make them in Mopane?Why does a small hole flute seem like a sports car?
-
GaryKelly
- Posts: 3090
- Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:09 am
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Swindon UK
Does O'Whatzizname have a web site? And does he make them in Mopane?
"It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner
-
dow
- Posts: 954
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:21 am
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 12
- Location: Boerne, TX
Sorry, but the maker has neither webpage nor electricity nor phone. You must make the long and arduous trek by yak to his enclave in the far blue mountains. From there you must petition to be placed on his waiting list, and then must wait outside until he decides on your petition. This may take anywhere from five minutes to fourteen years, three months, and 26 hours. IF your petition is accepted, he will build you a flute of his choosing, in the key or keyless of his choice, and from whatever wood or cement that he has handy, and you will darn-well be glad you got it, since, afterall, a hippopotamous on rails is indeed a terrible and awesome thing to behold.GaryKelly wrote:
Dow Mathis ∴
Boerne, TX
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently motivated fool.
Boerne, TX
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently motivated fool.
-
Wormdiet
- Posts: 2575
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:17 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: GreenSliabhs
It seems to me that there are two potential issues:GaryKelly wrote:Thanks, I think, for admiring my ambition to eradicate the BS. It was always my lifelong dream to help someone fulfil their lifelong dream, and I did that with Eric's banjo reviewSo now I need another lifelong dream and I think this is it. [etc]
1) Whether one D-flute can really feel "more responsive" than another.
2) Whether the sports car analogy is appropriate or not.
Regarding the first issue, I can state categorically that my M & E feels more responsive than a Dixon two-piece or a Tipple because I have played all three in the same sitting. So, a Dixon might indeed be your "Holy Yugo."
I have also had the experience of feeling that some conical "Irish" flutes can be more responsive than others. In this case, Olwells in particular definitely do, compared to my flute. regardless of the actual physics involved, if an instrument *feels* more responsive, the player will play as if it *is* more responsive. Is it something that one can measure with a ruler? Probably not. But as a subjective quality that many prize in a flute, "response" is absolutely valid.
But I might just have internalized the unholy NASCAR-related propaganda of the chiffboard. . . and there really is no difference between a Dixon and an Olwell.
Regarding the second issue (the appropriateness of the simile/metaphor/analogy) . . there's no precise way to convey the physical experience of playing an instrument. The sports car analogy, while cheesy, works for some people. It isn;t a moral issue.
You do hear similar metaphors applied to electric guitars, if not fiddles, all the time.
Notice - I am not contesting the point that small holes add to responsiveness because I don;t know and don;t really care - I like big ones. I suspect a lot of the differences in "feel" come down to embouchure.
And both of those speculations are *entirely* without basis on your part. For one thing, I prefer the Bb spacing over any other - it is my favorite and most comfortable whistle to play. This is proably because it is very close to GHB spacing, which is what I started playing.But your comparison of Eb and Bb whistles is a tad specious, and is really a red herring. The point being, *you* find it easier to perform finger articulations on the smaller whistle, likely for a number of reasons: on the Bb, the holes are spaced further apart than on the Eb, your muscles aren't responding well to the difference, or perhaps the mellow key of the Bb (which lends itself very well to the playing of slow tunes) is subtly inducing you to slow down.
And secondly, your have no right or basis to assume anything about the subjective effects of the Bb key vs. anything else in my particular head. That's like assuming I like Italian Roast more than Java.
The difference is, I suspect, because the Bb tube is longer and it takes just a tad more time to get an air fluctuation to resolve to a stable standing wave in a Bb tube than a D tube. In any event, the entire point of the Bb whistle discussion was to prove that, yes, some whistles ARE in fact more responsive than others, regardless of the cause.
To beat this into a bloody pulp,
if
[Proposition 1] Some whistles or flutes are more responsive than others, subjectively or objectively speaking, [/prop]
then
[Proposition 2]
The sports car analogy can be useful. [/prop]
I'm sure there's a better way to notate the syllogism, but I didn;t do well in pedantry.
OOOXXO
Doing it backwards since 2005.
Doing it backwards since 2005.
-
GaryKelly
- Posts: 3090
- Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:09 am
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Swindon UK
My speculations are entirely with basis; they were based on your statement that you find it easier to perform finger articularions on an Eb whistle than a Bb. I *suggested* a couple of *likely* (ie possible) reasons. The mellow properties of the key of Bb are well known (there's a reason Beethoven didn't write his 5th Symphony in that key, for example) and I'm sorry the mellowing effect of that key doesn't have the same psychological effect on you that it does on others.
Perhaps, and of course this too is speculation based entirely on something you've written, exposure to the Great Highland Agony Bags have coloured your experience of the key? Teehee.
But since you appear to be championing the cause of the 'sports car' analogy, I'm still interested to hear whether or not you find a G whistle so much more responsive than your Eb or Bb? After all, if your small-hole small air-column theory holds true, if your Eb
is a sports car then your G should be a veritable sidewinder missile where 'responsiveness' is concerned.
Your syllogism is sadly invalid, since we have no universally accepted definition of 'responsiveness' which can be tested on all keyless D flutes.
Would you expect two Eb whistles of the same type (note, not necessarily the same make) to possess different qualities of responsiveness? What tests would you conduct to rate them from 'sports car' to 'Morris Traveller'?
Again, whistles in different keys are really a red herring. The question regarding the 'sports car' analogy revolves entirely around keyless D flutes, and the perennial "Rudall V. Pratten" argument. No-one's claiming that a keyless D flute is a sports car while a keyless Bb flute is a bus. They're claiming that a small-holed keyless D is a sports car, while others claim that a Pratten keyless D is a Formula One car.
Which is pants, of course, and which is why I keep asking for some kind of test I can perform on my flutes to decide which is which, but no-one's seriously answering. (Kudos to you though, Worm, for entering into the spirit of the matter).
I have flutes in D, Eb, and Bb. It's no surprise to me that when I'm playing any of them, lifting a finger off a tone-hole results in an instantaneous change in pitch. Of course, there may in fact be a miniscule delay at the molecular level, measurable only by some extremely complicated electronic equipment, but as far as the human senses are concerned, it's instantaneous. Same as on a whistle. And that's got to be true of a Dixon or an Olwell, no? Laws of physics, and all that.
So if as you say 'response' is purely subjective, if people choose to believe that a flute has an accelerator and a steering mechanism which endow their flutes with sports car-like properties, then these properties exist entirely in their heads, and have no business being touted as fact in flute reviews or repeated ad nauseam like some
holy Mantra or the Sermon on the Mount. Just because it exists in their heads doesn't mean it exists in anyone else's (that would be like me assuming you like Italian Roast more than Java) and it clearly doesn't in mine.
I think the real reason for the sports car analogy simply comes down to ego, or vanity, that all-important "wow-factor". It's the icing on the "my flute is fantastic!" cake. The oft-repeated phrase, like the oft-repeated lie, gains popular acceptance at the expense of reality. The real issue here is that someone reading such analogies may believe them, and spend a lot of money on a flute based on something that exists only in someone else's head, or worse, doesn't exist at all.
Perhaps, and of course this too is speculation based entirely on something you've written, exposure to the Great Highland Agony Bags have coloured your experience of the key? Teehee.
But since you appear to be championing the cause of the 'sports car' analogy, I'm still interested to hear whether or not you find a G whistle so much more responsive than your Eb or Bb? After all, if your small-hole small air-column theory holds true, if your Eb
is a sports car then your G should be a veritable sidewinder missile where 'responsiveness' is concerned.
Your syllogism is sadly invalid, since we have no universally accepted definition of 'responsiveness' which can be tested on all keyless D flutes.
Would you expect two Eb whistles of the same type (note, not necessarily the same make) to possess different qualities of responsiveness? What tests would you conduct to rate them from 'sports car' to 'Morris Traveller'?
Again, whistles in different keys are really a red herring. The question regarding the 'sports car' analogy revolves entirely around keyless D flutes, and the perennial "Rudall V. Pratten" argument. No-one's claiming that a keyless D flute is a sports car while a keyless Bb flute is a bus. They're claiming that a small-holed keyless D is a sports car, while others claim that a Pratten keyless D is a Formula One car.
Which is pants, of course, and which is why I keep asking for some kind of test I can perform on my flutes to decide which is which, but no-one's seriously answering. (Kudos to you though, Worm, for entering into the spirit of the matter).
I have flutes in D, Eb, and Bb. It's no surprise to me that when I'm playing any of them, lifting a finger off a tone-hole results in an instantaneous change in pitch. Of course, there may in fact be a miniscule delay at the molecular level, measurable only by some extremely complicated electronic equipment, but as far as the human senses are concerned, it's instantaneous. Same as on a whistle. And that's got to be true of a Dixon or an Olwell, no? Laws of physics, and all that.
So if as you say 'response' is purely subjective, if people choose to believe that a flute has an accelerator and a steering mechanism which endow their flutes with sports car-like properties, then these properties exist entirely in their heads, and have no business being touted as fact in flute reviews or repeated ad nauseam like some
holy Mantra or the Sermon on the Mount. Just because it exists in their heads doesn't mean it exists in anyone else's (that would be like me assuming you like Italian Roast more than Java) and it clearly doesn't in mine.
I think the real reason for the sports car analogy simply comes down to ego, or vanity, that all-important "wow-factor". It's the icing on the "my flute is fantastic!" cake. The oft-repeated phrase, like the oft-repeated lie, gains popular acceptance at the expense of reality. The real issue here is that someone reading such analogies may believe them, and spend a lot of money on a flute based on something that exists only in someone else's head, or worse, doesn't exist at all.
"It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner-
Wormdiet
- Posts: 2575
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:17 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: GreenSliabhs
Is an Olwell more responsive than a Dixon 2-piece?
I would say yes. Plenty of people would agree. This evaluation is indeed subjective, but has rather more substance then the contention that purple dwarves control our atmosphere from invisible spaceships or that "blue is better than red." Subjectitivy, in and of itself, does not mean entirely without factual basis or merit. Subjectively, we'd all agree that Beethoven is better then the Backstreet Boys, but there is not a physical measurement or mathematical calculation anywhere in the world that could "prove" that preference.
Does the sports car make sense in communicating this subjective yet common experience of resposiveness? I'd say so. Does the analogy work for you? Clearly not. We're just repeating ourselves past that. Thanks for a stimulating debate, but the arguments presented aren't terribly persuasive to me, as mine have not been for you.
I will resist the temptation to respond futher because it will result only in more blather about which the rest of the world probably doesn't care. I don't either, but it has been entertaining so far.
On a broader level, I absolutely agree with you that reviews are often overly glowing and often do not really provide any useful info to prospective buyers. The ones I pay attention to are from players who have owned or had long-term experience with many different flutes. James P's reviews, for instance, or Dave M's, or Katski's, have a lot of weight behind them. My own don't, point taken.
David often makes the point that one should always include their experience level when reviewing gear, and that just makes sense. I am not sure
I would say yes. Plenty of people would agree. This evaluation is indeed subjective, but has rather more substance then the contention that purple dwarves control our atmosphere from invisible spaceships or that "blue is better than red." Subjectitivy, in and of itself, does not mean entirely without factual basis or merit. Subjectively, we'd all agree that Beethoven is better then the Backstreet Boys, but there is not a physical measurement or mathematical calculation anywhere in the world that could "prove" that preference.
Does the sports car make sense in communicating this subjective yet common experience of resposiveness? I'd say so. Does the analogy work for you? Clearly not. We're just repeating ourselves past that. Thanks for a stimulating debate, but the arguments presented aren't terribly persuasive to me, as mine have not been for you.
I will resist the temptation to respond futher because it will result only in more blather about which the rest of the world probably doesn't care. I don't either, but it has been entertaining so far.
On a broader level, I absolutely agree with you that reviews are often overly glowing and often do not really provide any useful info to prospective buyers. The ones I pay attention to are from players who have owned or had long-term experience with many different flutes. James P's reviews, for instance, or Dave M's, or Katski's, have a lot of weight behind them. My own don't, point taken.
David often makes the point that one should always include their experience level when reviewing gear, and that just makes sense. I am not sure
OOOXXO
Doing it backwards since 2005.
Doing it backwards since 2005.
-
lyrick
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:44 am
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: The U S and A
By a strange coincidence, someone just posted some tunes on Clips 'n Snips with this intro: "Greetings from Limerick! I'm test driving an Ian Lambe Eb low whistle at the moment and..."
Think I'll go "exhale some breath" into one of my whistles. Or am I allowed to be more figurative/poetic and say that I'm going to "play" one of my whistles? Although I may end up crashing and burning...oops, sorry, used a metaphor...
Think I'll go "exhale some breath" into one of my whistles. Or am I allowed to be more figurative/poetic and say that I'm going to "play" one of my whistles? Although I may end up crashing and burning...oops, sorry, used a metaphor...
Love...Serve...Remember
-
flutefry
- Posts: 480
- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:58 am
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: Pipes have become my main instrument, but I still play the flute. I have emerged from the "instrument acquisition" phase, and am now down to one full set of pipes (Gordon Galloway), and one flute (Hudson Siccama).
- Location: Coastal British Columbia
Right then, I'll bite. While I accept that a skilled player will get a better sound out of a drainpipe with holes punched with a nail than I will from my Sonic bombast made from leprechaun shillelaghs, I have to agree with Wormdiet here. I play in a recorder consort, and play everything from the great bass in G (about 5 feet long) to the garklein flotlein (about 6 inches long), all made by the same maker. Most of these have no keys, although everything from tenors down have one key. Smaller instruments are more responsive. It's much easier to play a fast passage on a smaller instrument than a big one, even when the difference in finger stretch is minimal. The fingers may indeed move just as fast , but the notes don't sound as quickly, so a given passage can't be played as quickly. Notice that the claim that an instrument is more responsive for player A is not negated by the demonstration that player B does not find it so. Player B can just be more skilled than player A. My claim is that any player who is used to instruments of different sizes will find the shorter one more responsive.
It seems to me that Gary's quest for test is easily met. Just record yourself playing any passage as fast as possible on instrument 1 and instrument 2. Do this multiple times, playing the two instruments in random order. Time each tune. If one can consistently play the passage/tune on one instrument faster than the other, then one is more responsive. I suppose one in theory could play back the recording on an oscilloscope, slowed down, and also see a difference in rise time and decay. I doubt if anyone would carry out this for fun, but formally at least, it should be possible to test for responsiveness.
As an aside, Tom Aebi offers one model of flute, but one can get it with holes that each differ from each other by 0.5mm. Why would a flute maker offer the same flute with different hole sizes if players didn't like one more than the other? I am not making any claim about why they might like smaller or larger holes, as I haven't played the two to compare. You could in principle at least use the same headpiece on each body, and have one player compare the two. I suspect this comparison would be informative, even to listeners without benefit of any measuring equipment, and certainly to players.
In September sometime I posted my impressions of playing two flutes (Byrne and McGee), both copies of the same small hole, small bore Rudall. I couldn't see any difference in hole size or spacing. FWIW, I found the Byrne much more responsive. Lined head? embouchure? Hidden bias? Delusional? Who knows. Could a listener have detected it? Dunno. Was it real to me? Yes. Could I have been equally proficient on either flute eventually if I had practised enough? I assume so. But if I liked one better, why wouldn't I play the one I liked better? It's my time, and my money.
I realize this is a replay of an oft-repeated discussion whose consensus is: The player makes the most difference. A good flute player will get a good sound out of any competently designed and made flute. Subjectively, even a good player may prefer one flute over another because it is easier to do this or that desired thing. To the listener, there might not be an obvious difference, even though the player has preferences.
Nevertheless, I find it interesting how different players with different skill levels and backgrounds DO report similar impressions when playing a given flute. Byrnes and Hamiltons are examples on this board where many different people hve similar reactions. I think people should not be discouraged from giving their subjective impressions about how they respond to a given flute. If many people say the peppermint stick takes a long time to learn to get a good tone, I think that information is valuable, unquantified or not.
Nor am I bothered by people who run into the problem that writing about music is like dancing about architecture as the saying goes. If they play two instruments, and one feels like a sports car, and the other feels like a DAF, and they say so, one can get the idea about how someone felt about the two instruments.
Best,
Hugh
It seems to me that Gary's quest for test is easily met. Just record yourself playing any passage as fast as possible on instrument 1 and instrument 2. Do this multiple times, playing the two instruments in random order. Time each tune. If one can consistently play the passage/tune on one instrument faster than the other, then one is more responsive. I suppose one in theory could play back the recording on an oscilloscope, slowed down, and also see a difference in rise time and decay. I doubt if anyone would carry out this for fun, but formally at least, it should be possible to test for responsiveness.
As an aside, Tom Aebi offers one model of flute, but one can get it with holes that each differ from each other by 0.5mm. Why would a flute maker offer the same flute with different hole sizes if players didn't like one more than the other? I am not making any claim about why they might like smaller or larger holes, as I haven't played the two to compare. You could in principle at least use the same headpiece on each body, and have one player compare the two. I suspect this comparison would be informative, even to listeners without benefit of any measuring equipment, and certainly to players.
In September sometime I posted my impressions of playing two flutes (Byrne and McGee), both copies of the same small hole, small bore Rudall. I couldn't see any difference in hole size or spacing. FWIW, I found the Byrne much more responsive. Lined head? embouchure? Hidden bias? Delusional? Who knows. Could a listener have detected it? Dunno. Was it real to me? Yes. Could I have been equally proficient on either flute eventually if I had practised enough? I assume so. But if I liked one better, why wouldn't I play the one I liked better? It's my time, and my money.
I realize this is a replay of an oft-repeated discussion whose consensus is: The player makes the most difference. A good flute player will get a good sound out of any competently designed and made flute. Subjectively, even a good player may prefer one flute over another because it is easier to do this or that desired thing. To the listener, there might not be an obvious difference, even though the player has preferences.
Nevertheless, I find it interesting how different players with different skill levels and backgrounds DO report similar impressions when playing a given flute. Byrnes and Hamiltons are examples on this board where many different people hve similar reactions. I think people should not be discouraged from giving their subjective impressions about how they respond to a given flute. If many people say the peppermint stick takes a long time to learn to get a good tone, I think that information is valuable, unquantified or not.
Nor am I bothered by people who run into the problem that writing about music is like dancing about architecture as the saying goes. If they play two instruments, and one feels like a sports car, and the other feels like a DAF, and they say so, one can get the idea about how someone felt about the two instruments.
Best,
Hugh
I thought I had no talent, but my talent is to persist anyway.
-
Jack Bradshaw
- Posts: 933
- Joined: Thu May 01, 2003 2:49 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Hampstead, NH
- Contact:
Not to cast asperins at this discussion (which I am enjoying to no end), but, there are good physical reasons why the small hole flute may be more responsive (ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL).
The flute with the larger holes will have a sharper resonance (a higher Q, etc), that is to say, less bandwidth at the same frequency than the smaller holed variety. Bandwidth is inversly proportional to response time (even if the player, like yours truly, is incapable of taking advantage of it) Notice, higher frequency instrument with the same Q = larger bandwidth = shorter response time, etc etc
So, if you see how far you can bend the same note (same frequency) on two different flutes,......the one you can bend furthest has the greater bandwidth and the fastest response (NOT neccesarily the greatest volume)
Just to complete the discussion, the same argument can be applied to the edge of the embouchure. The same "hissiness" that signifies wide bandwidth lets the flute "jump" between octaves the faster (personally, that's the aspect that feels more like an oversteering sports car)
Jack
The flute with the larger holes will have a sharper resonance (a higher Q, etc), that is to say, less bandwidth at the same frequency than the smaller holed variety. Bandwidth is inversly proportional to response time (even if the player, like yours truly, is incapable of taking advantage of it) Notice, higher frequency instrument with the same Q = larger bandwidth = shorter response time, etc etc
So, if you see how far you can bend the same note (same frequency) on two different flutes,......the one you can bend furthest has the greater bandwidth and the fastest response (NOT neccesarily the greatest volume)
Just to complete the discussion, the same argument can be applied to the edge of the embouchure. The same "hissiness" that signifies wide bandwidth lets the flute "jump" between octaves the faster (personally, that's the aspect that feels more like an oversteering sports car)
Jack
603/329-7322
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
-
Jack Bradshaw
- Posts: 933
- Joined: Thu May 01, 2003 2:49 pm
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
- Location: Hampstead, NH
- Contact:
Well, it's not "Beautiful Dreamer" for sure ! (But that one is more my "speed")Denny wrote:Dreamer!Jack Bradshaw wrote:Just to complete the discussion,
603/329-7322
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
