Pewters vs. Pads

[Pekkos]

Hello

I don't think I've introduced myself properly here, my name is Anders and I live in Gothenburg, Sweden. I'm a fiddle-player who also plays swedish bagpipes and started on flute (a Tipple) 15 months ago. I recently bought a Clementi from Mr Migoya(a lovely instrument ), since I wanted a keyed flute, because I mostly play swedish music, which is mostly a fiddle tradition in all sorts of keys.

To my question

What are the drawbacks, advatages of pewter plugs or pads on a C-foot on a 8-key flute? I only have have experience in playing a Clementi 8-key with pewters, and think they work fine most of the time, but they have a the charming clattering. Is there a clearer sound from one of them, or is it more difficult to make one or the other? I think I've read somewhere that pewters were used on more expensive instruments in the early days of the 8-key, was that due to sound differences, or reliability? or what?


/Anders

[johnkerr]

Most likely the reason pewter plugs have come to be the standard on the C foot keys, rather than pads as are used on the other keys of the flute, is the fundamental difference in the way these keys operate. The keys on the traditional six-key flute layout (long and short F, Bb, C natural, G# and D#) normally rest in the closed position and are opened to sound the note when needed. The C and C# foot keys are the opposite - normally they rest in the open position and are closed when the relevant note is sounded. Now, when a key is in the closed position the seal needs to be tight, else the sound of any notes below the keyhole will be diminished. By tight, I mean that there can be absolutely no leakage of air from the keyed hole. With pads made of leather or some similar material, it is (relatively) easy to ensure that the seal will remain tight if the key normally sits in the closed position, as the pad material will mold itself to the contours of the hole thus keeping the seal tight enough to resist the relatively low pressure of the air moving through the flute. However, if the pad remains open all the time this molding of pad material to hole countour can't happen - which means that when the key is closed there's a very high likelihood that the seal won't be tight, and the note will not sound properly.

For this reason, the early designers of 8-key flutes developed the pewter plug system for the C and C# foot keys. The pewter plug which stops the pewter-lined hole can be engineered to fit tightly, and since the pewter will not change shape under normal conditions the seal should be tight when the key is closed. (Provided of course that there are no alignment problems with the position of the key on the flute - which often there are.) As you can probably deduce from this, there is a whole set of design issues that are unique to the C and C# foot keys, which is why even some of the best modern flute makers do not build 8-key flutes. And if some flute maker did come out with a design that uses pads rather than plugs for the foot keys, I for one would be very skeptical of it.

[Ro3b]

Pads would work if they're a non-traditional material that doesn't need to be "set" the way leather purse pads do. Silicone caulk, say. John Gallagher uses neoprene as a pad material on his low C and C# keys (actually on all his keys) and it works quite well.

[johnkerr]

Pads would work if they're a non-traditional material that doesn't need to be "set" the way leather purse pads do. Silicone caulk, say. John Gallagher uses neoprene as a pad material on his low C and C# keys (actually on all his keys) and it works quite well.

That's what I like, Rob - healthy skepticism. Sure, this would work. Likewise, a modern material could probably be found to replace pewter in plugs to avoid the annoying clacking sound. For good traditionality feng shui, though, these solutions would probably best be applied to the delrin flute.

[Pekkos]

Usage of modern materials is always an interesting discussion , for me personally I like them if its not too visible and does its job in a better way than the old ones.

I guess that there might be a difference in the venting between the two, and thus how clearly sounding the D and C# gets?

I guess the reason for the makers making the pad version is that they think it works better, or is more simple to manufacture?

[chas]

I experimentally verified that pads on the C foot are a pain in the ass. I repadded an 8-key that has pads on the C foot, using foam for the pads. It took awhile to get them right. They have to be just the right thickness, and I also put ruber bands around them for a couple of weeks. The foam has somewhat of a memory, so they're fine now.

[johnkerr]

I experimentally verified that pads on the C foot are a pain in the ass. I repadded an 8-key that has pads on the C foot, using foam for the pads. It took awhile to get them right. They have to be just the right thickness, and I also put ruber bands around them for a couple of weeks. The foam has somewhat of a memory, so they're fine now.

That was kind of my train of thought when I initially slagged pads. Even the tightest of seals with the best shape-retaining pad materials are going to deteriorate over time. This is true whether the pads normally rest in the closed position or in the open position. But I'd wager that the deterioration in the pad seal is going to proceed slower if the pad sits closed almost all the time. For instance, crud or gunk accumulating on the pad will probably help tighten the seal if it happens while the pad is closed, whereas if the pad accumulates the crud while it's sitting open it will probably not seal perfectly on the very brief occasions it gets closed to sound a note. Also, pads that are closed all the time are held that way by a fairly constant spring pressure, while those that are closed just to sound the note will have a different pressure each time depending on how hard the player pushes the key. If the pad material, no matter what it is, compresses at all on one particularly hard or extended key touch and holds that new shape, a lighter touch the next time around may not seal it tightly.

As a point of reference, the leather pads on my 6-key Olwell are almost nine years old and I've never done a damn thing to them in terms of maintenance. I've yet to have a problem with them not sealing tight. I wonder if John Gallagher's foot-key pads, as good as they no doubt are, will seal as well in nine years unmaintained? (Now watch - having said that, I'll have multiple pad leaks tonight at the session...)

[George]

I don't have a problem with pads on the foot joint. As to their ability to function just look at a saxophone, most of its keys stay open all the time. Its bell keys go down to what would be our Bb and they're huge.
If the instrument is made well, level tone holes, keys where they're supposed to be, pads the right size, then you can float the pad on a layer of glue level it and put a seat in it. Should be set for a good long while, or at least until you remember to use one of those keys.

Sincerely,
-George

[peeplj]

George is right, there are keys which stand open on most modern woodwinds. The clarinet has many, and clarinet pads will work fine on wooden flutes.

I do think there is a difference, though, in modern leather clarinet pads, and in the leather purse pads used historically. I am not sure of the exact difference in construction, however.

--James

[madtom]

George is right, there are keys which stand open on most modern woodwinds. The clarinet has many, and clarinet pads will work fine on wooden flutes.

There is also a significant construction detail in the modern open pad instruments such as silver flutes and saxophones: the holes are raised cylinders with rims in a horizontal plane that allow the open pads to fit nice and snug. The holes on wooden flutes don't have this detail and the curvature of the flute body makes it hard for the large pads to fit the hole tightly.

[SoTX]

There is also a significant construction detail in the modern open pad instruments such as silver flutes and saxophones: the holes are raised cylinders with rims in a horizontal plane that allow the open pads to fit nice and snug. The holes on wooden flutes don't have this detail and the curvature of the flute body makes it hard for the large pads to fit the hole tightly.

Clarinet. Oboe. Bass clarinet. English horn. Bassoon, for heaven's sake.

Pewter plugs make a lot of sense if the alternative is purse pads. They make a lot less sense if the alternative is card-backed flat pads. Yes, even for normally-open pads. Pewter plugs are more durable, of course, but if that were the deciding consideration they would be used for all keys.

If your intent is to make a replica of a 19th-century instrument, by all means use pewter plugs, and cocus if you can get it. If your intent is to make the best possible modern instrument, you should at least consider the choice makers of other modern woodwinds have made: card-backed leather stuffed with felt, floated in shellac. I think silica gel should probably be considered as well.

For at least part of the history of pewter plugs, though, the only alternative was purse pads, and they didn't work for normally-open keys.

-- Don

[glinjack]

To Pekkos,
I also have a six key clementi flute all pewter plug keys, and a william henry potter seven key all pewter plug keys which i sometimes play, the keys will
make the clicking sound if you hit the key touch fast and heavy and when the plugs are dry, try putting a little bit of cork grease on each plug before playing, but dont put too much as you dont want to get globs of grease stuck in the little rings that receives the plugs.

[Jon C.]

Hi,
I have a D'Almaine flute with pewter plug keys. The small keys work well, and do not have much clatter. Tey do stick form time to time with humidity change.

[eilam]

Jon, try a drop of oil, i do that on my R&R and it seals great, does not stick.
e.

[Jon C.]

Jon, try a drop of oil, i do that on my R&R and it seals great, does not stick.
e.

Just tryed it, it worked beautifully!
Thanks,