Just started trying to play the whistle a few weeks ago progressing ok i thought,but these last cpl of days ive put in 4 or 5 hours practice,and my fingers and the back of my right hand aches and have stiffened a bit.Question..is this just my hand and finger muscles getting beefed up to the new length of practice time,as in when ppl start using muscles they dont normally use they get achy and stiff and in time the muscles get built up so stiffness goes.i have been hammering the rolls on bottom E as r3 was dead weak for me.hope this makes sense regards
pop
ps i dont hold the whistle that tight most of the time only when im getting used to tricky bit then i free up when i grasp it.
fingers stiff
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Wormdiet
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What he said. I had the same problem when I switched to flute last year (especially with that weird top-hand grip most people use on a flute). Anyways, a few specific parts of my lower arm would hurt like hell for a day or two and then the pain would go away.peteinmn wrote:Pop
Lay off the practice for a few days and give your fingers/hands a break. Practicing 4-5 hours a day is probably way too much at this stage.
Over the summer as I developed some muscles this problem diminished steadily, and only recurs rarely now. The trick is to NOT overdo it. Do a search on "tendonitis" and you will uncover some links to helpful sites that discuss stretching exercises and good ergonomic habits. Even if you play a lot of total hours during a day, you can break up your practice spells to make it more manageable. You CAN develop serious damage if you push too hard.
OOOXXO
Doing it backwards since 2005.
Doing it backwards since 2005.
Yeah, that M&E is really mouthpiece-heavy. Took a while to get myWormdiet wrote:What he said. I had the same problem when I switched to flute last year (especially with that weird top-hand grip most people use on a flute). Anyways, a few specific parts of my lower arm would hurt like hell for a day or two and then the pain would go away.
left wrist used to that...
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TonyHiggins
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I noticed I squeezed the whistle way too hard, especially with the left hand, when I started, and it took a lot of conscious attention to relaxing my grip. The faster I tried to play, the tighter the grip. That caused burning pain in my forearm muscles.
Tony
Tony
http://tinwhistletunes.com/clipssnip/newspage.htm Officially, the government uses the term “flap,” describing it as “a condition, a situation or a state of being, of a group of persons, characterized by an advanced degree of confusion that has not quite reached panic proportions.”
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pop
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going to start stretching exercises before and after practice when this ache has subsided.
My inclination was to play through it thinking eventually my hand and fingers would strengthen,but after your advice i realise i was way off the mark.
Found this might be of use to a novice like me with similiar wrong ideas.
-------------------
By: Linda Dessau, The Self Care Coach (Associate Writer)
2005-09-15
This article takes a look at musicians' injuries. For an expert perspective, I interviewed Dr. Sarah Mickeler, B.Mus., D.C. Dr. Mickeler is a former professional musician and a chiropractor who concentrates on musicians' injuries in her practice. Her research can be found on her website at www.drsarah.ca.
[Linda Dessau] What led you to specialize in musicians' injuries?
Dr. Sarah Mickeler I have a very personal connection to musician's injuries. I had trained as a classical clarinet player and it was during my undergrad that I started to have all sorts of problems from playing too much and with poor posture. Unfortunately I was told, as many others are, that I should just play through the pain and that maybe it would get better! Of course it didn't, and it eventually led to the demise of my career as a clarinetist because I was totally unable to hold up my instrument. So I decided to pick a new career that would help others musicians - and hopefully before they got to the point that I was at! Chiropractic appealed to me because of the whole health care paradigm that it embodies - as chiropractors, we diagnose and fix the cause, rather than masking the symptoms.
[Linda Dessau] What is different about treating musicians than treating the general population?
Dr. Sarah Mickeler Often what I tell people who don't understand the specifics of musicians' injuries is that "it takes one to know one." As a musician, it can be very difficult to explain to a physician or physiotherapist or even another chiropractor what the mechanics look like when you are playing your instrument. But when someone comes into my office and says that they play a flute, guitar, tuba or whatever, I know exactly what the physical component of playing their instrument involves. That is a very important first step.
Secondly, not only do you have to be able to have a good understanding of what playing that instrument involves, but you have to be able to see that person play. Even if someone tells me they play violin (I automatically think: "ok, so they will be leaning their head to the left and have right shoulder problems, etc..."), I am often shocked to see how over the years of playing they have contorted themselves into a little pretzel while they play! So, on the first or second visit, all of my musicians bring in their instruments and I do a thorough playing analysis to see what it is that they're doing right and wrong. It could be that their posture is contributing to their injury. Or maybe there's something about the instrument that we could change; it might just need a minor adjustment in the thumb rest or a key positioning. For instance, I have very small hands and found it difficult to reach some of the alternate fingering keys on my clarinet - so I had them sawed off and re-soldered on in a different direction so I could reach them.
Thirdly, it is important to recognize that there are some really common reasons for performance injuries. The most common ones are a change in repertoire, a change in the instrument (such as a new mouthpiece or something similar), a change in practice time or an upcoming recital. If we can pinpoint what it is that the performer has been doing differently lately to contribute to their injury, that helps immensely.
And lastly it is so important to realize, especially for freelance artists, that you can't just tell them to take a muscle relaxant and take a few weeks off. If these people took a few weeks off, they wouldn't have a roof over their head or food on the table. While it's occasionally absolutely imperative that a break be taken, most of the time I take a holistic approach to treating performers and change and fix what we can, within the obvious limitations of current gigs and upcoming events.
[Linda Dessau] What's the most common injury that you see in your office?
Dr. Sarah Mickeler In my office, there is a tie for the most common injury. The first is upper back/shoulder/neck pain - I lump these together because those terms can mean the same thing to a lot of people - often someone will come in and say that their shoulder hurts and point to the pain, but to me what they're pointing to is actually their upper back or lower neck. This one is often a function of poor posture or poor practice ergonomics. If we can figure out how to improve the overall posture and ergonomic situation then this tends to resolve quickly.
And the second most common injury is hand and arm pain. You would not believe how many people walk into my office with numb and tingly hands and fingers - which can be very scary if you're the one to experience it - to find out that the problem isn't actually their hands and fingers at all, but it's a little further up the arm and can be quite easily treated once properly diagnosed. Or they come in with tennis elbow - but they have never held a tennis racket in their life! In my office, I call tennis and golfer's elbow "musician's elbow" because it is a repetitive strain injury. It is really, really common and surprisingly easy to treat.
[Linda Dessau] What can musicians do to prevent injury?
Dr. Sarah Mickeler First of all, don't be a hero! There is just no reason to practice for hours on end without a break. Always remember to take a little break for every 30 minutes that you are playing. Secondly, don't play through pain. The pain signal is there to tell you that you are doing something wrong. Playing through it is not going to get you anywhere - other than in more pain and in worse shape down the road. Thirdly, be aware of your ergonomics. If you sit to play, does your chair fit you properly? In rehearsal, do you have to strain at all to see both the stand and the conductor? Are your arms contorted oddly in order to be able to play properly? This is not good. And lastly, seek the help of a professional who can not only help you with the injuries that you are currently dealing with, but can help you avoid future injury and optimize your overall performance.
--------------sorry its a bit long
cheers pop
My inclination was to play through it thinking eventually my hand and fingers would strengthen,but after your advice i realise i was way off the mark.
Found this might be of use to a novice like me with similiar wrong ideas.
-------------------
By: Linda Dessau, The Self Care Coach (Associate Writer)
2005-09-15
This article takes a look at musicians' injuries. For an expert perspective, I interviewed Dr. Sarah Mickeler, B.Mus., D.C. Dr. Mickeler is a former professional musician and a chiropractor who concentrates on musicians' injuries in her practice. Her research can be found on her website at www.drsarah.ca.
[Linda Dessau] What led you to specialize in musicians' injuries?
Dr. Sarah Mickeler I have a very personal connection to musician's injuries. I had trained as a classical clarinet player and it was during my undergrad that I started to have all sorts of problems from playing too much and with poor posture. Unfortunately I was told, as many others are, that I should just play through the pain and that maybe it would get better! Of course it didn't, and it eventually led to the demise of my career as a clarinetist because I was totally unable to hold up my instrument. So I decided to pick a new career that would help others musicians - and hopefully before they got to the point that I was at! Chiropractic appealed to me because of the whole health care paradigm that it embodies - as chiropractors, we diagnose and fix the cause, rather than masking the symptoms.
[Linda Dessau] What is different about treating musicians than treating the general population?
Dr. Sarah Mickeler Often what I tell people who don't understand the specifics of musicians' injuries is that "it takes one to know one." As a musician, it can be very difficult to explain to a physician or physiotherapist or even another chiropractor what the mechanics look like when you are playing your instrument. But when someone comes into my office and says that they play a flute, guitar, tuba or whatever, I know exactly what the physical component of playing their instrument involves. That is a very important first step.
Secondly, not only do you have to be able to have a good understanding of what playing that instrument involves, but you have to be able to see that person play. Even if someone tells me they play violin (I automatically think: "ok, so they will be leaning their head to the left and have right shoulder problems, etc..."), I am often shocked to see how over the years of playing they have contorted themselves into a little pretzel while they play! So, on the first or second visit, all of my musicians bring in their instruments and I do a thorough playing analysis to see what it is that they're doing right and wrong. It could be that their posture is contributing to their injury. Or maybe there's something about the instrument that we could change; it might just need a minor adjustment in the thumb rest or a key positioning. For instance, I have very small hands and found it difficult to reach some of the alternate fingering keys on my clarinet - so I had them sawed off and re-soldered on in a different direction so I could reach them.
Thirdly, it is important to recognize that there are some really common reasons for performance injuries. The most common ones are a change in repertoire, a change in the instrument (such as a new mouthpiece or something similar), a change in practice time or an upcoming recital. If we can pinpoint what it is that the performer has been doing differently lately to contribute to their injury, that helps immensely.
And lastly it is so important to realize, especially for freelance artists, that you can't just tell them to take a muscle relaxant and take a few weeks off. If these people took a few weeks off, they wouldn't have a roof over their head or food on the table. While it's occasionally absolutely imperative that a break be taken, most of the time I take a holistic approach to treating performers and change and fix what we can, within the obvious limitations of current gigs and upcoming events.
[Linda Dessau] What's the most common injury that you see in your office?
Dr. Sarah Mickeler In my office, there is a tie for the most common injury. The first is upper back/shoulder/neck pain - I lump these together because those terms can mean the same thing to a lot of people - often someone will come in and say that their shoulder hurts and point to the pain, but to me what they're pointing to is actually their upper back or lower neck. This one is often a function of poor posture or poor practice ergonomics. If we can figure out how to improve the overall posture and ergonomic situation then this tends to resolve quickly.
And the second most common injury is hand and arm pain. You would not believe how many people walk into my office with numb and tingly hands and fingers - which can be very scary if you're the one to experience it - to find out that the problem isn't actually their hands and fingers at all, but it's a little further up the arm and can be quite easily treated once properly diagnosed. Or they come in with tennis elbow - but they have never held a tennis racket in their life! In my office, I call tennis and golfer's elbow "musician's elbow" because it is a repetitive strain injury. It is really, really common and surprisingly easy to treat.
[Linda Dessau] What can musicians do to prevent injury?
Dr. Sarah Mickeler First of all, don't be a hero! There is just no reason to practice for hours on end without a break. Always remember to take a little break for every 30 minutes that you are playing. Secondly, don't play through pain. The pain signal is there to tell you that you are doing something wrong. Playing through it is not going to get you anywhere - other than in more pain and in worse shape down the road. Thirdly, be aware of your ergonomics. If you sit to play, does your chair fit you properly? In rehearsal, do you have to strain at all to see both the stand and the conductor? Are your arms contorted oddly in order to be able to play properly? This is not good. And lastly, seek the help of a professional who can not only help you with the injuries that you are currently dealing with, but can help you avoid future injury and optimize your overall performance.
--------------sorry its a bit long
cheers pop
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PhilO
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Four or five hours of daily practice is an awful lot; hopefully it's not continuous? I still get some pain in the joints around the thumbs when playing as much as one and a half hours straight. AT least take breaks. Also do some exercises before and after playing - hard to explain but there are some really good aikido hand/finger/wrist loosening exercises that we used to do before classes (there are many wrist locks/take downs, etc.). They're quite simple and feel great especially when you have pain or cramping in the hands fingers and wrists. One entails palm to palm all fingertips touching and gently and slowly pushing first one hands fingers back and down and then the others. You will feel the stretch all the way down through your wrists and into the lower forearms. Then there's grabbing one hand with the other, thumb pressing the back of the hand with two fingers inside the thumb joint on the palm and two below the outer thumb on the wrist, turning the hand being held sort of in on itself and down - great wrist stretch.
Take it easy and RELAX...
Also, look at it this way, you're one dedicated SOB, and will probably, at this rate, either be a great player or in the hospital. 
Philo
Take it easy and RELAX...
Also, look at it this way, you're one dedicated SOB, and will probably, at this rate, either be a great player or in the hospital. Philo
"This is this; this ain't something else. This is this." - Robert DeNiro, "The Deer Hunter," 1978.
I agree 4-5 hours is alot, when I played that much on my clairnet I ended up spraining a small muscle in my thumb. It still hurts sometimes now, when I play both my whistle and clairnet. I would say to start off with less time and slowly bulid up the practise time, but you still have to be careful.
-Music is a magic beyond everything-
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pop
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" "
Take it easy and RELAX... Also, look at it this way, you're one dedicated SOB, and will probably, at this rate, either be a great player or in the hospital. ""
Do you think they would let me practice in the hospital
Blame morrisons jig the second part had me in knots got a bit of a grasp of those first few triplets now though.for some reason the cuts in those first few bamboozled me the rest i could handle albeit a bit ropey.
Take it easy and RELAX... Also, look at it this way, you're one dedicated SOB, and will probably, at this rate, either be a great player or in the hospital. ""
Do you think they would let me practice in the hospital
Blame morrisons jig the second part had me in knots got a bit of a grasp of those first few triplets now though.for some reason the cuts in those first few bamboozled me the rest i could handle albeit a bit ropey.
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Cynth
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Thanks, pop, for the good article and for bringing up the subject. I had stiffness and pain in my right wrist and forearm and I continued practicing for 2 continuous hours a day. It was not excruciating, but enough to wake me up at night if I turned over. I started to get worried. I did not go to a doctor but I felt I had better stop practicing based on what I had read. It is only now, six months later, that it has gone away. I am starting again, trying to learn to relax, and working with some tendon exercises. I practice for about 10 minutes. If I have problems again, I will seek the help of a professional right away to see if there is any hope at all.
Diligentia maximum etiam mediocris ingeni subsidium. ~ Diligence is a very great help even to a mediocre intelligence.----Seneca
A lot of us, myself definitely, are skating on the edge of
injury. If you practice long and hard, the bod wasn't made
to do it.
first rule: when it hurts, stop and rest; and if it still hurts
stop longer.
These injuries take a while to heal and it's best not to get them
in the first place. Overuse is a good way to get into
trouble.
Also, if one is getting injured or tending to, review basic form
and see if one is holding the instrument properly.
Experiment with adjusting your grip so as to minimize
stress at the places that hurt.
This business starts from the bottom up; best to return to
the basics when things start going wrong.
injury. If you practice long and hard, the bod wasn't made
to do it.
first rule: when it hurts, stop and rest; and if it still hurts
stop longer.
These injuries take a while to heal and it's best not to get them
in the first place. Overuse is a good way to get into
trouble.
Also, if one is getting injured or tending to, review basic form
and see if one is holding the instrument properly.
Experiment with adjusting your grip so as to minimize
stress at the places that hurt.
This business starts from the bottom up; best to return to
the basics when things start going wrong.
Now I feel better - I thought it was just me!TonyHiggins wrote:I noticed I squeezed the whistle way too hard, especially with the left hand, when I started, and it took a lot of conscious attention to relaxing my grip. The faster I tried to play, the tighter the grip. That caused burning pain in my forearm muscles.
Tony
This is something I need to constantly monitor; otherwise, by the time I've played a few minutes I've got my whistle or flute in a death-grip. And the tighter my grip, the *harder* it is to play at any kind of speed.
And as Jim Stone said - now I stop and rest if it starts to hurt. Makes a *huge* difference.
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thirdfipple
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hmmm
you might consider some stretching and warmup exercises for any sensitive areas before you start.
consider icing any areas where you have problems after you are done. little paper cups filled with water and frozen are handy and cheap, massage it over the area for about 20 minutes
consider icing any areas where you have problems after you are done. little paper cups filled with water and frozen are handy and cheap, massage it over the area for about 20 minutes
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Cynth
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The first post in this thread titled "Discover Your Discomfort" by ausdag in the UP forum has a link to a quite good article about becoming more aware of tension. It is written for guitar players but anyone can take advantage of the advice.
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ort#462845
I agree with jim stone. At least for me it appears that I am going to be starting at square one again, or not playing at all. So I am actually supporting the whistle on a pillow and putting my fingers on the holes just so I get a sound. I do not have my thumbs on the whistle because then I squeeze. I am hoping by this insanity to (1) get an idea of what it feels like not to squeeze and (2) learn to not press my finger harder if the note does not sound right but to move my finger to the proper place instead. Don't know if this makes any sense. It's not very fun, so I only do it for 10 to 15 minutes, which is probably a good thing anyway. I am also trying to be constantly aware of tensing up my back and shoulders. Got some Valium anyone?
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ort#462845
I agree with jim stone. At least for me it appears that I am going to be starting at square one again, or not playing at all. So I am actually supporting the whistle on a pillow and putting my fingers on the holes just so I get a sound. I do not have my thumbs on the whistle because then I squeeze. I am hoping by this insanity to (1) get an idea of what it feels like not to squeeze and (2) learn to not press my finger harder if the note does not sound right but to move my finger to the proper place instead. Don't know if this makes any sense. It's not very fun, so I only do it for 10 to 15 minutes, which is probably a good thing anyway. I am also trying to be constantly aware of tensing up my back and shoulders. Got some Valium anyone?
Diligentia maximum etiam mediocris ingeni subsidium. ~ Diligence is a very great help even to a mediocre intelligence.----Seneca