Heya,
I realize that this post is whistle related, but just tell me if it's in the "wrong" forum...
Recently I had the chance to "learn a few tunes" from Sean Ryan, oh well, and he just told us that he loved tonguing (not sure if the word is spelled right!). He said that he kinda knew that this wasnt that traditional, and that he remembered he heard the pros and cons at one point, and that tonguing in traditional whistle playing was "introduced" in the states. All that said, I love his playing style, and would like to know what could be the pros and cons. I know that StevieJ is kinda "against" tonguing, but he never really told me why.
Use your tongue, Luke!
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Bloomfield
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Hey, this is a subject on which I can say something that will make a lot of sense and yet be utterly useless.
I think if you never tongue (like you might on the flute), you are wasting a means of musical expression that is particular to the whistle. OTOH, if you tongue every note you will not be able to give the music the swing and lilt and flow that makes ITM on fiddle, flute, pipes, or concertina.
I think if you never tongue (like you might on the flute), you are wasting a means of musical expression that is particular to the whistle. OTOH, if you tongue every note you will not be able to give the music the swing and lilt and flow that makes ITM on fiddle, flute, pipes, or concertina.
/Bloomfield
I don't see how tonguing takes away from lilt and swing. I'd think it would be a tool for adding to it, rather. Are you saying that because tonguing slows down the tune?On 2002-08-01 16:28, Bloomfield wrote:
Hey, this is a subject on which I can say something that will make a lot of sense and yet be utterly useless.
I think if you never tongue (like you might on the flute), you are wasting a means of musical expression that is particular to the whistle. OTOH, if you tongue every note you will not be able to give the music the swing and lilt and flow that makes ITM on fiddle, flute, pipes, or concertina.
Bloomfield said 'if you tongue every note.'
That does get you so much articulation
that swing and lilt may suffer.
It's hard to get the right balance
about tonguing,
tastes differ and my tastes differ
at different times. The suggestion
that at some point its worth trying
to play a tune entirely without
tonguing, using cuts, taps, rolls, crans,
et al for articulation (or perhaps
without articulation) instead,
has proven valuable to me--but at the
end of the day I return to my old
ways.
Also tonguing can be helpful combined
with ornaments--one might call this
'stacking' articulation. So one
can tongue at the beginning of a cut
and also at the beginning of a slide.
Well, I think maybe we're in the
wrong forum. Best
That does get you so much articulation
that swing and lilt may suffer.
It's hard to get the right balance
about tonguing,
tastes differ and my tastes differ
at different times. The suggestion
that at some point its worth trying
to play a tune entirely without
tonguing, using cuts, taps, rolls, crans,
et al for articulation (or perhaps
without articulation) instead,
has proven valuable to me--but at the
end of the day I return to my old
ways.
Also tonguing can be helpful combined
with ornaments--one might call this
'stacking' articulation. So one
can tongue at the beginning of a cut
and also at the beginning of a slide.
Well, I think maybe we're in the
wrong forum. Best
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StevieJ
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I don't know!On 2002-08-01 14:16, Azalin wrote:
I realize that this post is whistle related, but just tell me if it's in the "wrong" forum...
The idea of tonguing being introduced in the USA seems very far-fetched. This would seem to imply that players of the generation of Packie Byrne and Josie McDermott picked the habit up from records or from players returning from the States, which I don't buy. And which US whistler was such a formative influence on Sean Potts, I wonder?Recently I had the chance to "learn a few tunes" from Sean Ryan, oh well, and he just told us that he loved tonguing (not sure if the word is spelled right!). He said that he kinda knew that this wasnt that traditional, and that he remembered he heard the pros and cons at one point, and that tonguing in traditional whistle playing was "introduced" in the states. All that said, I love his playing style, and would like to know what could be the pros and cons.
I would imagine that tonguing has always been used by whistlers. My guess is that the oft-repeated assertion that "Irish whistle players don't tongue" arose from attempts to point out to learners that tonguing every note, or every strong beat, is (by and large) incompatible with good flow and phrasing. The message ends up being garbled and simplified by non-players. I was once solemnly informed by someone who heard me playing (and who knew not very much about Irish music) that "you shouldn't tongue when playing the whistle".
Sean Ryan was probably told that by someone once. Fortunately he didn't listen to them, because it is utter nonsense.
The really interesting thing about Ryan's use of tonguing is the way he manages to integrate it with fingered ornamentation, such as rolls. He does it so accurately that the effect is highly subtle - so subtle that you may not even notice it at first. Whereas when other players attempt to do the same thing it sounds as though they are sputtering and stuttering into the whistle.
I can't believe you are saying this. Is it because you've seen me trying to get classically trained players not to tongue all the time? If so, it's a good demonstration of the message getting simplified and ultimately completely distorted.I know that StevieJ is kinda "against" tonguing, but he never really told me why.
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Bloomfield
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I love tonguing, for what it allows me to do with tunes. I am a recent beginner and at best a pedestrian player, but I am slowly arriving at the state of proficiency where being able to "play along" in the session is not fully satisfying. I have become much more aware of the flow, heartbeat, soul of tunes. (I know I'll laugh at the comment in a year, let alone 15 years.) And I am getting relaxed enough about playing some familiar tunes that I want to start playing with them, variying them, not just running through them three indistinguishable times.
I think I'll start a separate thread on this variation business at some point. For now I want to say that I am not technically or stylistically advanced enough to "just throw in a roll or a triplet" when I want. I have to practice such variations in order not to have my rhythm falter (it is getting easier, though). But tonguing is different: I can use tonguing for varying a tune pretty much on the fly. That is a real delight because I can pick up on the mood of the session, or my own mood for that matter.
For example (and forgive me for puling out a chestnut), in the B-part of Star of Munster there is this little phrase at the start:
ed | ea{b}ab ageg | agbg agef | g...
(If you're not so familiar with ABC, the "{b}" represents a cut between the two a's. See the FAQ for a link to ABC information.)
Apart from just tonguing the second a in the first measure, I do stuff like this:
ed | e.az.b ageg | ...
ed | e{b}.a2b ageg | ...
(z is a rest [for breathing], and I use a dot .a to show a tongued a)
It's very minor as variations go, but it's a start, I guess. The second variation is a tongued cut, the kind Jim mentioned. I don't know why anybody would want to give up this kind of tonguing. In that B-part of SoM, it can really give a kick to the tune.
Star of Munster sheet music, FYI:
(not exactly how I play it, but pretty standard session version, I think.)
_________________
/bloomfield
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-08-02 10:18 ]</font>
I think I'll start a separate thread on this variation business at some point. For now I want to say that I am not technically or stylistically advanced enough to "just throw in a roll or a triplet" when I want. I have to practice such variations in order not to have my rhythm falter (it is getting easier, though). But tonguing is different: I can use tonguing for varying a tune pretty much on the fly. That is a real delight because I can pick up on the mood of the session, or my own mood for that matter.
For example (and forgive me for puling out a chestnut), in the B-part of Star of Munster there is this little phrase at the start:
ed | ea{b}ab ageg | agbg agef | g...
(If you're not so familiar with ABC, the "{b}" represents a cut between the two a's. See the FAQ for a link to ABC information.)
Apart from just tonguing the second a in the first measure, I do stuff like this:
ed | e.az.b ageg | ...
ed | e{b}.a2b ageg | ...
(z is a rest [for breathing], and I use a dot .a to show a tongued a)
It's very minor as variations go, but it's a start, I guess. The second variation is a tongued cut, the kind Jim mentioned. I don't know why anybody would want to give up this kind of tonguing. In that B-part of SoM, it can really give a kick to the tune.
Star of Munster sheet music, FYI:
(not exactly how I play it, but pretty standard session version, I think.)
_________________
/bloomfield
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-08-02 10:18 ]</font>
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Azalin
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Heya,
Stevie, well actually I'm sorry about saying that you were against tonguing, I mean I shouldnt assume someone else's toughts. I think the moral to the story is when you hear stuff at a stage where you can't comprehend them, you just stick to the ideas. I remember a whistle player, Sonny, he told me more than 1 1/2 year ago that you were against tonguing and that this was silly idea since many great players were tonguing all the time. Also, I think you're right about you trying to teach classical players not to tongue as much, and being interpreted by some as "not to tongue" in irish music... The good thing about this is that I never tried "not to tongue", I just let it flow naturally and don't think much about it anyway...
Stevie, well actually I'm sorry about saying that you were against tonguing, I mean I shouldnt assume someone else's toughts. I think the moral to the story is when you hear stuff at a stage where you can't comprehend them, you just stick to the ideas. I remember a whistle player, Sonny, he told me more than 1 1/2 year ago that you were against tonguing and that this was silly idea since many great players were tonguing all the time. Also, I think you're right about you trying to teach classical players not to tongue as much, and being interpreted by some as "not to tongue" in irish music... The good thing about this is that I never tried "not to tongue", I just let it flow naturally and don't think much about it anyway...
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ChrisA
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I think, first of all, obviously some ITM players tongue and do it just great, so, do what you like. I don't tongue... if I need my mouth to stop the wind, or force the start of a jump into the upper octave, I use a glottal-stop.
I think, more and more, that the 'not tonguing' comes from both overtonguing, so people are told not to and decide this means 'never tongue', and from flute-playing, though I suspect that somewhere out there there are ITM players who tongue on the flute too...
My reasons for not tonguing,other than being told it 'wasn't traditional' are that, once I stopped tonguing I was forced to learn my cuts and taps, and once I did, I discovered they were -way- faster than tonguing... I can't imagine double-tonguing or triple-tonguing fast enough to replace a roll, though you could (as Brother Steve does) supplement a roll with tonguing.
Thinking on it, I think if I did reintroduce tonguing into my playing, I'd not use it for articulation of like-notes-together but for emphasis of on-beat notes. I like the sound of a crisp cut for most articulations. (Not that most of my cuts -are- crisp, but hey, you have to start somewhere...
)
I do think it's very important to be -able- to play without tonguing, that is, your fingers should be capable of articulating and ornamenting everything, just because that much speed and dexterity is good for playing well, but I think you using tonguing... in a restrained way... is just fine, too, as long as you aren't using it as a crutch to cover finger weakness...
That is, you should figure out what sounds best, and get good enough to do -that-, and not tongue because you can't get your cuts crisp enough or start the upper octave without it.
So says opinionated me, with still less than a year of whistling, but I'm getting close.
--Chris
I think, more and more, that the 'not tonguing' comes from both overtonguing, so people are told not to and decide this means 'never tongue', and from flute-playing, though I suspect that somewhere out there there are ITM players who tongue on the flute too...
My reasons for not tonguing,other than being told it 'wasn't traditional' are that, once I stopped tonguing I was forced to learn my cuts and taps, and once I did, I discovered they were -way- faster than tonguing... I can't imagine double-tonguing or triple-tonguing fast enough to replace a roll, though you could (as Brother Steve does) supplement a roll with tonguing.
Thinking on it, I think if I did reintroduce tonguing into my playing, I'd not use it for articulation of like-notes-together but for emphasis of on-beat notes. I like the sound of a crisp cut for most articulations. (Not that most of my cuts -are- crisp, but hey, you have to start somewhere...
)I do think it's very important to be -able- to play without tonguing, that is, your fingers should be capable of articulating and ornamenting everything, just because that much speed and dexterity is good for playing well, but I think you using tonguing... in a restrained way... is just fine, too, as long as you aren't using it as a crutch to cover finger weakness...
That is, you should figure out what sounds best, and get good enough to do -that-, and not tongue because you can't get your cuts crisp enough or start the upper octave without it.
So says opinionated me, with still less than a year of whistling, but I'm getting close.
--Chris
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sweetone
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I can asure you all, tonguing in a musically way, is much more difficult than playing the whole piece without. Again, listen to Lunasa, try to play the pieces with or without, and tell me what is easier. The tonguing here is used to make musical sentences, so the rhytme comes out much more lively, try it yourself in any song. MUSICAL.... need there more to be said...
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Eldarion
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I get what you mean but on the other hand, its said that Sligo flute and whistle player Josie McDermott had a "lazy" left fingers when he was younger - meaning that he couldn't roll A and B to his satisfaction. So he replaced those rolls with triple tongues.On 2002-08-02 18:39, ChrisA wrote:
but I think you using tonguing... in a restrained way... is just fine, too, as long as you aren't using it as a crutch to cover finger weakness...
...
not tongue because you can't get your cuts crisp enough or start the upper octave without it.
Eventually he improved his left hand well enough to do good rolls, but the triple tonguing replacements for rolls still remained as a part of his personal style - one which I like very much.
So sometimes using the tongue as a crutch may not be such a bad thing after all!
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Grannymouse
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Didn't think I'd be posting on here.........not this soon anyway. An observation on my part.......both here and in Ireland....I've heard 3 different whistlers that really ripped through some jigs and reals. It occured to me in a light bulb moment that I don't think they tongued at all. I decided that's how they get their speed. I've been trying that but just can't kick the habit. My 2 cents worth. 
Gm
Gm