Pipers grip on the right hand

[Flauta dolce]

I was wondering what people thought of playing the piper's grip on the right hand.

I can't reach it on my Doyle flute as the stretch is too much. However, My teacher keeps telling me to do this. I don't want to have to tell my teacher again that I don't want to do it. And I do not wish to waste any more valuable lesson time or money on trying to do it.

I spoke to another flute player recently (Conor Byrne) said to me recently just play whatever is comfortable and I would tend to agree with him.

I would really appreciate your advice.

[Matt_Paris]

I play piper grip on the right hand with big holed flutes, on small holed ones, I prefer the "regular" curved finger position.

I think just like Mr Byrne.

[Flauta dolce]

Hi Matt,

I also agreed with Conor as he said that the grip could damage my hand and that worries me. Conor's approach is more flexible and relaxed.

Referring to your last thread, my Doyle flute does have large holes.

It's too late now, but I would have preferred to have bought a flute with small holes.

I am loath to do a piper's grip on it as the stretch is too much. There is also a fair amount of leakage when I do the piper's grip.

I have told my teacher that I'm unable to do it either.

You know what 's frustrating is that I have paid for a year of lessons with this teacher. It's very uncomfortable now when I'm at lessons as I am not able to do as he asks.

[Congratulations]

Piper's grip is something that doesn't necessarily come naturally. Eventually, as you use it more, the leakage will go away, and it will start to feel more natural.

For years, with saxophone, I always played with the bell between my legs (it's supposed to be off to the right). I had several teachers tell me that I'm handicapping myself, but I never cared. It felt odd to play it correctly. But I started playing with the bell off to the right for five minutes at a time, every time I practiced, and eventually it became my natural and preferred way of holding the instrument.

So, you might try it on a limited basis (perhaps for five minutes every time you practice) and see how it goes.

[Matt_Paris]

For years, with saxophone, I always played with the bell between my legs (it's supposed to be off to the right).

You mean, Mr Young's position


Is better than Mr Coltrane's?

:D

(My personnal position on the tenor is with the sax in front of my right leg. I just found it was the best for me.)

For irish trad, I don't think the position is really fixed... The most common could be with piper grip on the right hand, curved on the left, but I am not really sure about that...

Mr Molloy seems to play curved grip on his big holed Pratten.

[michael_coleman]

Take a look at Tom Doorley's grip from Danu, I hope that is comfortable to him:



I would go with what is comfortable. I play a slight version of pipers grip on the lower/right hand and I think I remember a lot of people saying here that they do as well.

[Wormdiet]

"Normal" top hand and piper's bottom hand for me. I tried using PG on top and it just didn't work, but it feels great on the bottom.

[Flauta dolce]

I forgot to say that I am a right-handed flute player.

It appears that there are no fixed rules as to how I should play (with or without the Piper's Grip).

However, I do not care for it on my right hand as the stretch feels strange.

The piper's grip is easier on a three piece flute as you can make some adjustments. The tone I get in the position I'm playing in is very good. So, that is why I don't want to change. To be honest, what's good enough for Matt Malloy is good enough for me.

I think I might change teacher as the guy who's teaching me is so dogmatic. (Is the piper's grip really the only way?).

[Jayhawk]

Looking at the picture of MM, I can honestly now say I play just like him...

Too bad I don't sound just like him, too.

Eric

[SoTX]

Interesting. When I took my first lesson from a classical/baroque teacher, she immediately told me to change to relatively flat fingers, but not piper's grip, on the right hand. It took a while, but it works for me.

What I mean by "piper's grip" is that the hand is skewed, with fingers flat, and at least one finger uses the pad of the second joint rather than the pad of the "tip" joint. It's the only way I can play my low D whistle, which the flute teacher couldn't play at all.

My feeling is that if you can reach the holes with the pads of the "tip" joint, you probably should. If you can't, some variation of piper's grip may make it possible. I have a huge Indian bamboo thing that surely no human can play any other way.

-- Don

[Dana]

Take a look at Tom Doorley's grip from Danu, I hope that is comfortable to him:

Man, look at that left hand and wrist position!

Dana

[Cathy Wilde]

Funny you should post that photo -- I've been experimenting with something much like that pictured "Doorley grip" after studying Turlach Boylan's playing on a visit here last fall (of course, it helps that his hands are HUGE!). Anyway, I fell in love with how relaxed his left hand looked, and how easy and free his fingerwork is -- effortless, in fact. So I asked him about it and he seemed to think that this "pinch grip" -- i.e., kind of balancing the flute on both thumbs and "pinching" it a bit with the LH1) was the best way to go (tho of course, he said it in fewer words than that ).

Anyway, it was HORRIBLY awkward at first, especially after playing a certain way for (Good Lord) 30+ years. But I was able to adapt much faster than I thought I would -- within a couple of days I made it through the better portion of the session that way.

Now I use both grips. The Doorley/Boylan/modified piper's (I think Turlach uses a truer piper's hold than Doorley; Turlach seems to raise his left elbow higher, thus keeping his left wrist and hand flatter, which is what I aim for, too) grip works much more easily on my smaller flutes (the Murrays) than on the McGee Pratten, but it's been an interesting exercise.

What I like is that it's really freed up my left hand and LH2, improving my A & B rolls, cranns, and general LH2 cuts or burbles. However, it can get hard on the wrist, especially in a long or hard-playing session (although it will force you to back off a bit -- it's physically impossible to grip too hard when you're basically balancing the flute on your thumbs!). I completely understand how people wind up with their flutes on their left shoulders now -- it's my first instinct when I go to bring the thing up (but I resist).

Anyway, like I said I now play *both* ways, depending on the flute -- but I've noticed that even when I revert back to "normal" grip the "feel" I've gotten in my fingers from using the other grip almost exclusively for several months has made a difference; even with normal grip my left-hand work is still better than it was before. What's more, I find I'm holding the flute more lightly than I did before, and pressing it into the base of LH1 much less (which is where the stiffness was coming from, I think)

So I use both grips or any combination thereof, just depends on the flute and what feels best that day.

BTW, I should point out that this is in no way advice. It's merely an experience I've had.

(In fact, I've been trying to pin down a flute lesson for months now just to discuss it and several other things with The Man, but he's too busy, alas)

A side note: I think one of the hard things with these reproduction flutes is that they're reproductions of an instrument that was primarily played by men! I'm fortunate to have long fingers so I can play a big Pratten, although since my hand is not as wide as a man's, there are still some balance and strength issues.

FWIW, I do NOT use that grip on "Arthur Darley's" or anything else with Bbs.

[AaronMalcomb]

Looking at the picture of MM, I can honestly now say I play just like him...

Too bad I don't sound just like him, too.

Eric

Me too, Eric.

[Unseen122]

Like Cathy I also use Doorley/Boylan Grip and I switched from full piper's originally just on the bottom hand then I did the top. As Cathy said it is a little bit rough on the wrist at first. This gives me the best ability to cover the holes as I can feel the hole better now.

[talasiga]

I was wondering what people thought of playing the piper's grip on the right hand.

I can't reach it on my Doyle flute as the stretch is too much. However, My teacher keeps telling me to do this. .........
................
I would really appreciate your advice.

I am confused by this comment. The pipers' grip increases reach so I cannot see how the stretch is too much using it.

In a later post you suggest that this teacher of yours may be being dogmatic. Perhaps he is as dogmatic as you are stubborn.

The fact is that the little Irish D flute (and little it is compared to the range of flutes available globally including some very large bansuris which can only be played with pipers' grip) - the little flute is amenable to both types of grip and mixtures of them.

If you can learn to play the Irish flute using both grips with your right hand then the words of Connor Byrne to play however is most comfortable will have a more potent application.

Stubbornness is a great attribute if one is in a corner and when one has few options. It is a fault when it blocks options for versatility.

I know much about stubbornness.