Just got my Black Belt in Taekwon-Do

[dubhlinn]

And Dave. That's not really what it's about. On the self defence side of things you have a point though. However, it can be more complicated than kicking someone in the nuts.

Henke my friend,

I tend to disagree.
I have met many guys over the years, who are very adept in all this Karate, Judo, Kung Fu, Taekwon do stuff. They all have one defining characteristic, which is the ability to defend themselves in any given situation. I do find it somewhat scary in these situations that the slightest imagined slur on their masculinity becomes grounds for self defence.
The Karate freaks, and I use the term very loosely, tend to react to the slightest bump, some guy with a drink too many who might accidently bump into them in a crowded bar, as a reason to assume some foolish position of self defence, to be ready to defend themselves against some attack which was never present in the first place. This kind of attitude I find scary.
There seems to me to be an ever present, every ready, sense of attack among those who know how to move, how to kick, how to do the ballet of violence.
Ninety nine times out of a hundred there is no attack, it's just a misunderstanding, or a drunk, or a guy who should have gone home hours before his last drink.
On the very rare occasion that it comes to a fight...walk away. No need to do all the fancy stuff..just walk away.

You can always get the miserable basmati when he's sober

See how it looks then.

Slan,
D.

[Henke]

Well Dave.
Then these guys you speak of have a bad mentality, they have very probably been trained in a bad way. You are not supposed to be wound that tight. A good system of self defence will teach you to run away. 99% of the times you will be able to get away by running. A true martial artist is not concerned with pride in a situation like this, he will not shy away from the though of running in the face of "the enemy". Of course there are lots of different schools, and the philosophy of a traditional system of combat/war is to be a proud warrior and never back down. It's written in the Bushido/Musado. However, that is not the philosophy one should interpretate literally in these modern days. There might come a time when you have to defend your loved ones or your belongings as well and not just yourself however, in these cases, running away will be an act of cowardness. It's all down to good judgement, and that is one of the things a good art of self defence is all about.
On the matter of reacting to situations that don't call for violence, it's the same deal. Since I started training I have become more tolerant to these things. You might call it confidence. I know that I can handle myself better than the average Joe, and I don't need to get into a defensive position as soon as somebody starts to mess with me. I have talked myself calmly out of situations when my friends who haven't trained anything stood by my side ready for action.
I'm not trying to brag. I feel that my school have though me 100 times more than just kicking and punching, that's all. And I feel like any good martial arts school should teach like that. The guys you're talking about obviously only knows how to kick and punch and that's really sad.

[Wanderer]

I have met many guys over the years, who are very adept in all this Karate, Judo, Kung Fu, Taekwon do stuff. They all have one defining characteristic, which is the ability to defend themselves in any given situation. I do find it somewhat scary in these situations that the slightest imagined slur on their masculinity becomes grounds for self defence.

Wow, these guys you describe sound totally psycho...I've never known any well trained guys around here like that. Then again, most of the instructors I've ever taken from would weed out the psychos before they got much training.

I mean, seriously, they sound like the over-the-top bad guys in Karate Kid

[Mitch]

[quote="dubhlinn The Karate freaks, and I use the term very loosely, tend to react to the slightest bump, some guy with a drink too many who might accidently bump into them in a crowded bar, as a reason to assume some foolish position of self defence, to be ready to defend themselves against some attack which was never present in the first place. This kind of attitude I find scary.[/quote]

Hey Dubhlin,

Sounds a lot like my home town, although in those days no one ever heard of martial arts per se. Some of us could box. But the kind of people sounds familliar. The last 3 donnybrooks I had - 1 the guy backed away when he saw how I was going to enjoy the fight, 2. the big guy gave up when he saw I wouldn't raise my hands (then disspeared under a pile of bouncers) 3. The smak freak backed off the ground I took until he was so far away I could only just hear the shouted threats.

As a kid I fought all the time, it seemed like the national sport, I hated the perpetual fear. These days, it's corporate politics, and I still hate it.

It's all pride, pride pride.

One thing for sure, My kid will go to one of these excellent dojos and learn in a few years what it took half a lifetime for me.

[Henke]

What I'm really troubled by is that everybody who haven't had first hand experience with martial arts seems to think that you do martial arts just to fight, to learn how to fight, to be a better fighter etc. You've got it wrong.

[Mitch]

What I'm really troubled by is that everybody who haven't had first hand experience with martial arts seems to think that you do martial arts just to fight, to learn how to fight, to be a better fighter etc. You've got it wrong.

Amen.

btw - congrats on the black belt! True strength is through discipline. I admire that.

[Tyler]

What I'm really troubled by is that everybody who haven't had first hand experience with martial arts seems to think that you do martial arts just to fight, to learn how to fight, to be a better fighter etc. You've got it wrong.

s'alright Henke, those of us who understand the hard work you've put in to get where you're at are still proud of ya!

[Nanohedron]

I have met many guys over the years, who are very adept in all this Karate, Judo, Kung Fu, Taekwon do stuff. They all have one defining characteristic, which is the ability to defend themselves in any given situation. I do find it somewhat scary in these situations that the slightest imagined slur on their masculinity becomes grounds for self defence.

Wow, these guys you describe sound totally psycho...I've never known any well trained guys around here like that. Then again, most of the instructors I've ever taken from would weed out the psychos before they got much training.

I mean, seriously, they sound like the over-the-top bad guys in Karate Kid

Over sixteen years of training I eventually earned my Sandan (3rd degree black belt) in JKA Shōtōkan Karatedō (for those of you who make such distinctions). Dubh, to describe the sort of macho-reactive behavior that you have observed as "self defense" is incorrect. That's just a case of hoping for trouble, and points ultimately to either a flawed character that slipped thru the cracks and wants to make people aware of him, or to a flawed teacher. In NORMAL training environments, as Henke says, the psychos tend to get weeded out, and the training process itself is part of that.

There ARE flawed teachers, though, and they pander to the neurotic and power-hungry on their terms. It gives martial arts training a bad name. I heard tell of one instructor who told his students that they'd never really know what they were about unless they got into fights. He suggested picking on drunks, by the way. So much for believing in your training's worth, eh? In my firm and not humble opinion that's not good training, but whoring it out.

If I would have ever displayed the bad sense to get into brawls and my sensei found out, he would have shown me the door no questions asked.

[I.D.10-t]

I hope that you will forgive my novice version of what I know about Martial arts.
First of all, I would like to say to dubhlinn that the majority of people that you meet that tell you repeatedly that they know Karate, Ching Chang Bang, or Dim Mok are much like the bible thumping Christians that rent hookers at night. They are trying to prove that they are not what they are. They bring shame to others.

As for different styles of martial arts, Each have drawbacks and benefits. Choosing the “best” style is dependent on several factors. Let us look at a few different scenarios.

Reason.

I believe that there is three main reasons for Martial arts.
Military, where "Self defense" means that you protect the community from outside invaders.
Police, meaning you defend the citizens first and prevent harm to all (even the aggressor).
Individual protection, meaning prevent harm to one’s self.
Other reasons such as weight loss, balance, philosophy, etc, are side benefits and not the reason for the style. I will ignore Sport fighting all together.

For an example, Akijujitsu (as taught locally) is taught as if it was a historical re-enactment. The style was designed for the battle field and does not bother with grappling because people on the ground would be quickly killed by others that were fighting. Akido, on the other hand, is more of a policing style and has moves that have become popular with some mental institutions because it allows protection for both the workers and their patients (as mentioned earlier on this thread).

Distance
Kicking, punching, and grappling ranges.

Distance is pretty straight forward. Judo concentrates on close grabbing and grappling, karate focuses on punching and kicking. Few styles treat fighting as a progression from stand up kicking to ground work.

Timing
Before a technique is launched against you, during and after.

Some styles seem to keep control of a situation before it happens, Shotokan karate seems to like to keep it’s distance and prevent an attack by this method Coparara seems to enjoy deception and misdirection to prevent an attack. Akido, seems to wait for an attack and re-direct it. Akido concentrates on what is happening during the attack. Jujitsu has many break falls and maneuvers to get out of an existing hold after a technique has been successfully applied.

Not that these different styles are one dimensional and only concentrate on highly specialized things. As a person becomes more advanced, different applications, timing, and distance issues tend to change. As a person learns Kata in Shotokan, the practitioner starts to learn wrist releases, as a person learns Akido, parts of it’s martial past become self evident. Styles overlap and use elements of all of the basic concepts in different ways.

Now that I have mentioned a half dozen styles, I will sit back and wait for the fact checking.

[Feadin]

I see the term "aikijutsu" mentioned many times here.... so just wanted to let you know that aikijutsu (and aikido) are just a stripped version of a real martial art from the Kuki family, Kukishin Ryu. At a time the Kuki's family martial art splitted in Kukushin Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu, wich btw is now one of the nine schools of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Oh, and I see something is missing in the "features" that you mention, I.D.: consciousness Sure it cannot be teached or learned, but there're ways to help it awake... and this is by far the most important feature of a martial artist.

Henke, you should choose a martial art according to your feelings, don't pay too much attention to the features or characteristics. Just go see a couple of classes, forget everything you know, and get the feeling of the dojo, how's their mood, how natural is the instructor... I think that kind of things are way more important than reviewing the "idea" of a martial art.

Just my two cents

[Darwin]

Now that I have mentioned a half dozen styles, I will sit back and wait for the fact checking.

About the only thing I can add is regarding distance and grappling. In my Aikido classes we were told that the minimum distance to maintained is about where the hands of the two participants (with almost-outstretched arms) can just meet. When the attacker is closer than that, he or she should be under control and, in most cases, on their way down. Wrestling-type grappling is considered dangerous. You don't want to be more-or-less randomly grabbing someone who might bring out a knife, for example.

Aikido does include controlling pins, but they don't involve anything that I would characterize as "grappling". In sessions that I have seen that involve multiple attackers, the basic strategy seems to have been to control and throw one person at a time, using that person to interfere with other attackers. I haven't, personally, seen pins used in those cases.

I'll also mention that we were frequently told to avoid making derogatory comments about other schools of martial arts.

[Tyler]

I see the term "aikijutsu" mentioned many times here.... so just wanted to let you know that aikijutsu (and aikido) are just a stripped version of a real martial art from the Kuki family, Kukishin Ryu. At a time the Kuki's family martial art splitted in Kukushin Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu, wich btw is now one of the nine schools of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

This is true, however, I would add that 95% of all martial arts out there have gone through a similar progression as the society of the practitioner and their needs change. Case in point; I am a student of both Iaido and Kendo. Both have charictaristics that seperate them so definately into two seperate arts, however, since they both are of the same origin, they employ nearly identical technique in various areas, yet for different reasons. Kendo is the practical martial application of what Iaido teaches; Iaido has become more the artistic, intrinsic, (maybe, for some) even esoteric expression of Samurai training. I started with Kendo when I was younger, mostly because testosterone asked me too . As I got older I gravitated to Iaido as a way in which to use the art to discipline and quiet my mind as well as keep in shape and have fun beating the hell out of my buddies with bamboo shinai.
Anwhooo, YMMV.




OT:
BTW Feadin, tal ves es una pregunta muy estupida, pero ?Tomas mate?

[Feadin]

This is true, however, I would add that 95% of all martial arts out there have gone through a similar progression as the society of the practitioner and their needs change. Case in point; I am a student of both Iaido and Kendo. Both have charictaristics that seperate them so definately into two seperate arts, however, since they both are of the same origin, they employ nearly identical technique in various areas, yet for different reasons. Kendo is the practical martial application of what Iaido teaches; Iaido has become more the artistic, intrinsic, (maybe, for some) even esoteric expression of Samurai training. I started with Kendo when I was younger, mostly because testosterone asked me too . As I got older I gravitated to Iaido as a way in which to use the art to discipline and quiet my mind as well as keep in shape and have fun beating the hell out of my buddies with bamboo shinai.
Anwhooo, YMMV.

OT: BTW Feadin, tal ves es una pregunta muy estupida, pero ?Tomas mate?

I agree that evolution is natural, but (as always, just my opinion) I feel that most modern "martial arts" are way too stripped down from their original sources. Modern civilization wants everything right away, results in no time, so most modern or modernized martial arts (or sports) give them what they want: Apparent results in no time.
Quite a lot of people thinks there's no use on learning to use traditional weapons like katana, daito, boken, wakisashi, hambo, jo, bo, naginata, shuko, shuriken, and so on. Also things like aruki (walking techniques), kaiten (rolling), tobi (jumping), ukemi (falling), ... But IMO all these techniques will give you different points of view of the same thing, let's call it taijutsu in this case (as an example). i.e. if we practise only jujutsu we won't ever understand real taijutsu because we'll only see one side of it, a "2D view".
Of course this is only my point of view at this time, from my limited experience. I haven't trained a lot of time in this art, but I realized something that all arts share. I practised archery too, and now music, and I feel they're all so much alike....

OT: No acostumbro tomar mate, estoy mas acostumbrado (extrañamente) al te verde (green tea)

[Tyler]

I agree that evolution is natural, but (as always, just my opinion) I feel that most modern "martial arts" are way too stripped down from their original sources.

For sure! Take American TKD for instance... Don't get Henke going on that one!

Modern civilization wants everything right away, results in no time, so most modern or modernized martial arts (or sports) give them what they want: Apparent results in no time.

I would certainly agree to that as well, it's what I call The McDonalds effect, if you know what I mean. No one wants to take the time to develop discepline. Though, I do notice that those who 'stick with it' are more prone to develop that discipline. Maybe we ought to teach martial arts in elementary schools

Quite a lot of people thinks there's no use on learning to use traditional weapons like katana, daito, boken, wakisashi, hambo, jo, bo, naginata, shuko, shuriken, and so on. Also things like aruki (walking techniques), kaiten (rolling), tobi (jumping), ukemi (falling), ... But IMO all these techniques will give you different points of view of the same thing, let's call it taijutsu in this case (as an example). i.e. if we practise only jujutsu we won't ever understand real taijutsu because we'll only see one side of it, a "2D view".

The "whole picture" definately results in a more well-rounded martial education. I also think, though, that the degeneration of certain styles is also principally due to people searching for one certain aspect of technique. The current state of Martial Arts is a good economics lesson in consumer demand; over the decades, the students (consumers) want certain particles of certain styles faster than others that they don't see being neccesary. The result is the aforementioned pruning of an art to meet the demand. Like Henke was commenting earlier in the thread, he enjoys the philosophical teachings of his arts, so he rather gravitates to the Korean arts he's chosen.
I would venture a guess that, like all consumer goods, it's a matter of taste, and tastes change, not always for the better.
Having said that, considering society's general lack of taste, it's no bloody wonder there are so many pruned martial arts!

OT: No acostumbro tomar mate, estoy mas acostumbrado (extrañamente) al te verde (green tea)

Que lastima! Pregunto porque mi linaje es de Gales y tengo familia en Argentina, pero no se mucho de ellos. Es la razon que aprendi Espanol (lo siento, las claves combinados para los accentos y tildes no sirven), para que algun dia podria viajar hacia Argentina y buscarlos los miembros de mi linaje alli.
Por mi parte, tomo mate todo los dias, de hecho estoy tomando mate ahora mismo. He pasado el bisio a muchos de mis amigos, y ahora tenemos mas que diez o once personas en mi ofecina que toman mate!

[Feadin]

OT: No acostumbro tomar mate, estoy mas acostumbrado (extrañamente) al te verde (green tea)

Que lastima! Pregunto porque mi linaje es de Gales y tengo familia en Argentina, pero no se mucho de ellos. Es la razon que aprendi Espanol (lo siento, las claves combinados para los accentos y tildes no sirven), para que algun dia podria viajar hacia Argentina y buscarlos los miembros de mi linaje alli.
Por mi parte, tomo mate todo los dias, de hecho estoy tomando mate ahora mismo. He pasado el bisio a muchos de mis amigos, y ahora tenemos mas que diez o once personas en mi ofecina que toman mate!

<off-topic>
Si, el mate es mas adictivo que el te verde, yo solo "contagie" a tres personas que ahora toman te verde regularmente.... creo que la razon de que el mate es mas adictivo tiene que ver con la manera en que se toma... la bombilla..... algo asi como el hecho de fumar, o comer chicle.

Y este es un buen momento para visitar Argentina, el dolar y el euro estan bastante altos por lo que a los turistas les resulta todo bastante economico. El sur es hermoso, muchos bosques, lagos y montañas.


Ok, I'll try to translate this a bit for the folks who doesn't read spanish. We're talking about mate, a drink tipical from Argentina (and Uruguay too). Tyler says he drinks it every day, and that now more than ten people on his office drink it too. I say I don't drink it, I prefer green tea (better if japanese) and that only three people I know started to drink green tea everyday after me... I believe the difference is because the way you drink mate, with some kind of straw (?) and that it reminds me of the act of smoking or chewing gum somehow.

Also, this is a good time to visit Argentina, since the dolar and euro are quite high, so everything is quite cheap for tourists (or should be, always have to be careful and have at least a second or third opinion on the same plan). The south is beautiful, with lots of woods, lakes and mountains...

</off-topic>