Metal inside wood bad, eh?

[Cathy Wilde]

I've done my fair share of debating minutiae on this forum.

I think we can chalk this down to another unique C&F experience.

The motto:

CHIFF & FIPPLE
o0o o0 0
No Hair Left Unsplit

I think the level of debate is in direct proportion to the level of bored a lot of us are at work (or wherever)!

[dow]

I think the level of debate is in direct proportion to the level of bored a lot of us are at work (or wherever)!

Now Cathy, don't bring work into the conversation. Personally I keep work and play completely separate. For instance, I've found that when reading C&F, I don't think about work at all!

[Terry McGee]

The whole cracking/lining business does lend weight to the plastic flute argument, but that would bring us 'round to the "a flute's material makes no difference to the tone" debate, a perennial favourite here.

Yep, seems inevitable that any wooden flute will crack. Some good metal flutes are out there that should never crack (and they don’t charge extra for keys!)

Actually, I have always wondered what a conical bored metal flute would sound like.

So three questions,

Were lined heads traditionally more expensive and their fore more likely to be repaired?

Wouldn’t this also affect metal tuning slides?

How much of a difference does the lining make? 20% increase? 40?

Some answers:

I don't agee it is inevitable that wooden flutes will crack. If you go through the museum collections you find plenty of 18th century flutes in good shape, while the 19 c flutes have cracks through head and barrel. And the bodies of the 19th c flutes are usually fine, unless there are other cases of trapped metal - eg socket liners, keyblock liners, etc. I don't know what the practical life of a wooden flute is, but I'm aiming at hundreds of years, perhaps a thousand.

A conical bored metal flute sounds pretty much like a conical wooden flute. Here's one I've played:



It's a great flute to play. Full story at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/clint-India.htm

Lined heads were (are) more expensive, but I don't think that influenced repairs. Generally repairs for cracked heads were not practical until the invention of modern glues. Even now, most repairs are temporary at best - sooner or later movement in the wood is likely to open up the crack again unless the overwhelming design fault can be dealt with.

Yes, the tuning slide is the same as a liner and in English-style flutes is the extension of the liner. In French flutes, the slide just extends about 60mm into the end of the head, leaving the rest unlined. The cracks are usually confined to the slide end.

Which really takes me back to my point - if you want a tuning slide, you need to come up with a strategy to attach it that will not split the wood.

I'm not sure I understand the third question - increase in what - cost? That would probably vary between makers depending on how they do the slide.[/url]

[Terry McGee]

Incidentally, I don't think it means you can't have lined flutes - you just have to come up with an approach where shinkage of the wood (which is inevitable unless you can guarantee the humidity never drops too low) will not cause conflict with the liner.

For example, take my silver head as a starting point:


In this design, the wooden barrel doesn't go all the way around the head - there's a neatly cut lengthwise slit at the back. The wood is bonded to the metal only around the embouchure hole (to keep the joint between wood and metal airtight) - the rest of the wood is free to slide back and forth with the climate. Now imagine that instead of a lip-plate sized bit of wood at the embouchure, we had a full head. The only difference being that the full head also has the slit down the back, and is only bonded to the liner around the embouchure. Bingo - a lined head that won't split on your next holiday to Arizona.

Now you couldn't have a slit down the barrel, as it would introduce leakage into the socket, so I'd suggest my New Improved Tuning Slide approach here - the metal slide being encased in cork to permit movement without stressing the wood.

End result - a fully lined head and barrel that should resist annual humidity cycling. The only giveaway would be the slit down the back of the head - that can be as narrow as you like and, if you prefer, filled with a black flexible sealant or strip. I'll get around to making one some day.

So, I don't think this has to be hard or has to limit choice - it's a question of how best to achieve these improvements.

And I certainly don't think all makers have to use my system (some already do) - but they are free to if they like. I'd just like them to look at the evidence history provides us and come up with some strategy to avoid repeating it.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - Santayana.

Terry

[Blackbeer]

Well far be it from me not to jump into a discussion on wood. One thing we are over looking here is not only wood type but where the hunk of wood was taken from the tree. Is it from the heart wood or farther out, sap wood or farther in. All of my blackwood flutes from the 19th century have cracked heads or barrels or both. Yet my rosewood Cloos is in perfect condition. My unlined cocus flute from about 1860 had a cracked head. Now don`t get me wrong, I am not into lined heads and wouldn`t buy a new flute with a lined head. My reasoning being why incourage fate. Now that is scientific

Take care

Tom

[Dragon]

Terry,

I am curious about your views of oiling. I know in the past there have been some debates on C&F as to the necessity of oiling flutes.

I, personally, oil my woodwinds often with either Almond oil or mineral oil (for woods version). I live in a very cantankerous climate (more or less 6mts of the year is humid, the other 6 months dry). I heard that oiling can help the wood adapt better to these changes.

Do you think oiling helps evade cracks?

[rama]

terry, what would be the recommended care for a wooden hj of that design? would it need the same precautions that we currently utilize (i.e. rel. humidity)?

[Dana]

A conical bored metal flute sounds pretty much like a conical wooden flute. Here's one I've played:

I'll pay you 20 guineas to make one for me! (How much is a guinea, anyway?)

Dana

[Screeeech!!!]

How much is a guinea, anyway?

21 shillings. £1.05 in new money.

[Terry McGee]

Terry,

I am curious about your views of oiling. I know in the past there have been some debates on C&F as to the necessity of oiling flutes.

I, personally, oil my woodwinds often with either Almond oil or mineral oil (for woods version). I live in a very cantankerous climate (more or less 6mts of the year is humid, the other 6 months dry). I heard that oiling can help the wood adapt better to these changes.

Do you think oiling helps evade cracks?

I believe it helps prevent cracks in unlined sections, where the cracks are going to be created when water soaks into the wood from the inside, swelling it, and finally the outside can't take it any more and cracks.

But I don't think it will help a lined section. Oil doesn't seem to fill the pores where the water used to be (perhaps it does on the surface, but not throughout the wood).

If you have a lined head, the only thing I can think of that should protect it is to keep it at a relative humidity similar to that where and when the flute was made. If that was London in the 1800's, I'd aim for about 65%. If it's a new flute, I'd ask the maker. (Don't just make assumptions, the maker might keep their workshop at a dramatically dryer or moister humidity than outdoors at their location.)

Terry

[Terry McGee]

terry, what would be the recommended care for a wooden hj of that design? would it need the same precautions that we currently utilize (i.e. rel. humidity)?

You mean the "fully lined head with the slit down the back" idea as I outlined above? I wouldn't expect it to need any maintenance and certainly not humidification. A wipeover with oil to keep it looking nice on the outside when needed, and perhaps oiling the inside and bottom of the socket, but then again, the cork grease probably achieves the same thing. Moisture can't get into the head other than via the sides of the embouchure hole (and it doesn't tend to gather there, unlike in the bottom of the head.

Terry

[Terry McGee]

I'll pay you 20 guineas to make one for me! (How much is a guinea, anyway?)

Dana

21 shillings as previously mentioned. So 20 guineas equals 20 pounds 20 shillings, ie 21 pounds.

It's not easy to evaluate that in today's currency as there are a number of ways to look at it. I've put USD prices in brackets:

In 2004, £21 0s 0d from 1860 is worth:
£1,288.20 using the retail price index ($2255.38 )
£1,883.54 using the GDP deflator ($3297.70)
£11,785.70 using average earnings ($20,634.40)
£14,531.90 using per capita GDP ($25,442.45)
£30,414.45 using the GDP ($53249.62)

I guess the average earnings is the logical one, but it makes it an expensive flute! Happy to make you one at that price!

Terry

[talasiga]

How much is a guinea, anyway?

21 shillings. ........

I grew up in a British Colony and then came to Australia at a time when we still had pounds, shillings and pence. As I recall it a guinea was one pound and one shilling. There were 24 shillings in a pound and therefore a guinea was 25 shillings.

Is there anyone in UK or Australasia of my generation who could correct me? (Come on Terry, have a little relief from the cracked head line of inquiry and Wombat, give the 'zouk a rest!)

[Jon C.]

My latest antique flute, HY Potter, (pictures to follow ) has a huge crack in the Headjoint, also. I have also noticed when pulling out the liner that they scored the liner to help it bind to the glue. Where the nice raised, sharp scrape is, that follows the crack in the head. I am sure you have seen this also, Terry. It kind of acts like a wedge you use to split a log (not in LA), as the wood shrinks the raised burr cuts right into the wood scoring it. This must compound the problem, with these old flutes.
So I wonder if the modern technique of not scoring the sleeve will make it last longer?

[Terry McGee]

How much is a guinea, anyway?

21 shillings. ........

I grew up in a British Colony and then came to Australia at a time when we still had pounds, shillings and pence. As I recall it a guinea was one pound and one shilling. There were 24 shillings in a pound and therefore a guinea was 25 shillings.

Is there anyone in UK or Australasia of my generation who could correct me? (Come on Terry, have a little relief from the cracked head line of inquiry and Wombat, give the 'zouk a rest!)

No, 20 shillings in the pound, 12 pence to the shilling. A foot was the length of one of the kings' feet; a yard the maximum distance from his nose to his outstretched finger. A chain is the length of a cricket pitch. 100 degrees F was supposed to be blood temperature.

I propose a new system of weights and measures based on the flute - this bedroom is 5 flutes long, a car costs 27 keyed flutes, 3.6 flutes loud, weighs in at half a flute, drips like a flute, a pressure of 9.84 flutes per cubic flute, etc.

You can see it's Friday after work time in Australia and it's been a long week. I think a glass of red is in order ....

Terry