If I were an irish music teacher...

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:16 am

Kay, it's been a long time I wanted to say that, but if I were a teacher I would adopt a different strategy than most teachers. A typical irish music teacher will try to teach his students new tunes, and will try to show them tunes they don't know. So we spend most of our time in the class learning new tunes. What's worse, from my point of view, is that every student get to try to play the tune they just learned, and even if the phrasing isnt correct or some ornamentation could be added, nothing is said. How can you be expected to improve your skills when you have just learned a tune and still struggling with the notes?

If I were a teacher, I'd pick up a tune that *everyone* knows, and work with each of the student on the phrasing, the swing, the ornamentation that could be added, etc. Today I didnt even bother going at my class, dead tired and I knew we were just going to learn a new tune, which I can easily do from tapes and MDs and CDs...

Oh well, don't know if anyone shares my opinion...

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:36 am

I stopped after my fourth lesson. I needed a teacher to help me get started, but I've learned more on my own (and with the help of so many here). I was spinning my wheels at the time that I quit the lessons because I didn't have a good handle on reading the music (I had never played any instrument before) and needed lots of practice before I could benefit any further from instruction. I'll probably go back from time to time, but mostly for evaluation of how I'm progressing and advice on phrasing, advanced music reading, etc. But I can learn most of what I need from listening to the masters on CD, so I'd be wasting time and money by going back to regular lessons.

I like your approach, Az. Pick a tune everyone knows and work on getting it right. The teacher could tell everyone at the previous lesson to learn a given tune, then when everyone has it down in a basic way, they can work on the details needed to make it sound right.
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[ This Message was edited by: blackhawk on 2002-07-13 08:45 ]

Mark_J · Post by **Mark_J** » Sat Jul 13, 2002 7:49 am

On 2002-07-13 07:16, Azalin wrote:
. . .How can you be expected to improve your skills when you have just learned a tune and still struggling with the notes?

If I were a teacher, I'd pick up a tune that *everyone* knows, and work with each of the student on the phrasing, the swing, the ornamentation that could be added, etc.

Az, your idea is killer. I wish part of live classes would have students re-learn tunes the right way as par for the course. As this thread develops, it may be good for someone to send this to some coordinators of the festivals with week long workshops. I certainly think your idea can coexist with learning a few new tunes, as well (i.e. re-learn a common jig or hornpipe and reel with some new skills, AND learn a couple new tunes that are off the beaten path).

Here I risk sounding like a commercial puppet, but here goes anyway. The second part of your idea in phrasing, swing and ornamentation is done quite well with Scoiltrad's classes. The tune I am working on now (the Fairy Queen: not the one by Carolan) has an ornament that really stands out (an off beat roll on D' in a hornpipe). I have never observed (meaning I may have heard it but can't remember it) hearing it before hearing Conal's version on the lesson (Conal's version of this HP on his older CD is a little different and does not have this ornament in it). The fact that you can practice the new skill, get feedback, learn it better, and get more feedback is one of the advantages that Scoiltrad's internet format has over group or individual classes. They take advantage of it quite well to the students benefit.

Today I didnt even bother going at my class, dead tired and I knew we were just going to learn a new tune, which I can easily do from tapes and MDs and CDs...

I think a lot of people do this, and it's a good idea. After you reach a certain skill & repertoir level (which I haven't yet), you can get a whole lot more out of the sessions and concerts.

'Grand that you articulated this idea.

Cheers
Mark

ysgwd · Post by **ysgwd** » Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:19 am

Azalin and all,
I applaud your criticism of some great players being mediocre teachers. I've had some great musicians refuse to teach me. They said they knew they weren't 'teachers,' and I admire them for their honesty. I've had some music student friends who attended the kind of class you describe, and they were too star-struck to find any fault with the 'teaching style.' Students pay hard earned money for classes taught by accomplished musicians, and they should get more than a performance and the sharing of some tunes...
Having someone demonstrate a desired ornamentation over and over at varying speeds until the student can execute it, and then having someone evaluate and trouble-shoot progress is something we can't get from cd's and videos.... even Scoiltrad can't tell us what we might be doing wrong with our fingers, posture, correct me if I am wrong....
I guess when an accomplished 'nonteacher' musician is faced with a number of students of varying abilities all at the same time, the first instinct is to come up with something to keep everybody busy....

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:39 am

Hoo boy, what a topic!

Yeah, there really are very few excellent teachers (of anything), out there, and the best players rarely make for the best teachers, in any field.

On the flip side, for those of you who haven't taught group classes before, it's not so easy, especially when you have a class full of people with varying experience levels, and extremely limited time in which to teach them. Having taught several hundred such classes in Martial Arts, and Rock Climbing, plus a few years as a Corporate Trainer, I know the challenges first hand.

In the end, group classes, especially large ones (more than 4-6 people), are going to be a compromise at best. Throw in "teacher" who hasn't spent a significant amount of time, effort, and thought on their teaching skills, and you end up with less than ideal results to be sure.

Loren

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[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-07-13 11:41 ]

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:59 am

Well, sorry to have to say it [ in the sense of blowing my own trumpet or whatever]but that's very much what I do, teach the music rather than tunes. Anybody can learn tunes at home, you don't need a teacher for that.
A lot of people want to get tunes though. That's what they come to the classes classes for. One of my piping students ended up this week in Conor McKeown's class and was actually much pissed off by the fact that he only got tunes. And ones he didn't like very much to boot.
I like to go on about want you can do with tunes and how they stick together.
You're dead right so as far as I am concerned. There are plenty of teachers though that can get that sort of matter across through teaching tunes. It's a personality thing as well I suppose. Teaching tunes is easier.
Iam not sure either that picking a tune everybody has will work, you get to deal with habits that are well settled and hard to erase, a fresh start is probably easier.

Also don't underestimate the extend to which a lot of people are obsessed with the mechanics, playing rolls ornamentation etc. [especially from the point of view of piping which is what I teach] I would make a point of explaing why you'd use a particular ornament, why and what effect you'd achieve with it rather than having everybody get as many twiddly bits in.
After all [and I have quoted this many times] as John Kelly said'if you hear a man playing a tune, you don't listen to the tune but you listen to what he does with it.'

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-07-13 12:09 ]

janice · Post by **janice** » Sat Jul 13, 2002 12:32 pm

Just adding my own 2 cents-
I teach beg/intermediate whistle at one of the local camps, after having gone to Augusta's Irish week for many years as a student. I had the same frustrating experience with many of the "star"players -they can really play but most do not have a good idea as to how to teach(and most grew up learning to play in the Irish culture, so they have trouble understanding how to teach to people who have not grown up in the tradition) .
The best teachers really stood out-Jerry O'S., in particular..............
Having said that though(and I teach High School for a living), it is sometimes tough to balance what you(as a teacher)know your students need to learn(i.e.-not tunes,which can be learned at home) but the basic fundamentals...........but this can be hard too, as there are always people who"want tunes, tunes, tunes"........and they did pay to be there....so it is always a balancing act(particularly when there are 10-20 people in a class). Most camps really value student opinion, and if you have a lousy(or good) experience with a particular instructor, then the people in charge need to know.........I've never known administrators of camps not to listen and respond...............................

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:22 pm

Janice makes a good point re: Tunes vs. Technique and what people want/need - No doubt some people go to camps/seminars/clinics looking primarily for one or the other, so here's a novel idea: How about offering separate classes - some for technique study and others for tune learning - instead of the potluck mishmash, hit or miss way it's usually done? Wow, what a concept.......

Loren

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sun Jul 14, 2002 1:38 am

Loren I don't think you can separate the one from the other.
I know there are a lot of people who are only interested in sitting down playing tunes in big sessions and direct their learning towards that. Fine.
To play the music properly though I think you need the whole bag, the technique is there to support the music to give expression to the tunes and both should be integrated in the approach to teaching the music. So while it's a novel idea, I don't think it will help you to work towards full musicianship, it won't do player or music any justice.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sun Jul 14, 2002 8:08 am

Peter,

Of course you are 100% correct about needing both components and not being able to separate them out over the long haul, I don't disagree one bit. However, I'm talking about separating the components for short term learning opportunities, which can absolutely be done, and in fact it is done all the time with music instruction (although not aparently as often with IR Trad).

Sure, a good class focusing primarily on technique will include instruction on how the proper technique would most apropriately be applied to the music, and for this you'd use one or more tunes as example, however it doesn't mean that you'd spend your time learning a bunch of tunes in class.

There are many ways this could be done, something similar to what L.E. does with ornaments in his tutor book would work well: First off you'd have a class prerequisite that people attending would need to know tunes X,Y, and Z. Notation for these tunes would be provided at the time people pre-registered for the class
and they would be expected to show-up knowing the basic tune. Very common tunes like Kesh, Morrison's, or whatever could be chosen (or not) based on the instuctor's preference and/or the ability level of the intended class.

During the actual class, the instructor could first focus on the proper playing of a given ornament, teaching and correcting students on the correct execution of the technique. Next the instructor would explain and demonstrate how, where and when the ornament would, and would not, be appropriate - first by way of discusion, then by having the group play through one of the previously learned tunes - inserting the ornament in various places to drive home the point. Additional instruction would be offered to students in terms of executing the technique with proper rhythm and timing. This could then be repeated with other ornaments, applied to the same or a different tune.

Just a bare bones example there Peter, but it can certainly be done.

For those wanting to learn tunes, you offer classes with Joe Famous or Joanie Famous, and make it clear during the registration process that the focus of the the class will be learning obscure tunes or whatever, and you make an attempt again to separate people by their ability levels. Sure, during the class the instructor will touch on the finer points of rhythm and phrasing for each tune, plus hopefully some history, but no significant amount of time would be spent trying to teach people technique (Sounds like this part is already being done at many camps/festivals, but without folks knowing up front this is what they'll be getting)

I'm curious why you think this format wouldn't work (better) in the clinic/festival/camp type short term learning environment Peter? I've seen it used sucessully with many musical instruments, in a wide variety of styles.

Loren

[ This Message was edited by: LOren on 2002-07-14 10:16 ]

Dewhistle · Post by **Dewhistle** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:12 am

Azalin, I agree with you. When I take an art course, I don't go expecting to be taught how to draw one object. I expect to be taught something of a practical, historical, or technical nature, depending... Whether it's a particular medium or a new way of rendering an image, it goes beyond the line drawing that we can all do already. I have plenty of tunes, but they sound rather flat without the ornamentation which I have trouble learning from text. Your idea sounds great.

janice · Post by **janice** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 7:44 am

Loren-
Absolutely.........from both a teaching and learning perspective...........

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 7:49 am

On 2002-07-14 10:08, Loren wrote:
I'm curious why you think this format wouldn't work (better) in the clinic/festival/camp type short term learning environment Peter? I've seen it used sucessully with many musical instruments, in a wide variety of styles.

Can't speak for Peter, but one problem is that people want to go away from a workshop feeling they have "got something" concrete out of it - especially a one- or two-hour session at a festival. For many, having learned a new tune will give them some kind of sense of achievement, which they won't get from listening to the teacher expounding on subtle matters which they can't really grasp or absorb yet, such as where to put an ornament or not.

Also, probably the biggest problem for a teacher of a workshop or group class is the disparity of levels and learning ability among the participants. Faced with this, teaching a new tune is the easy option, the lowest common denominator that will allow everyone to get something, including the slowest and least advanced - even if it means the most advanced will be gnashing their teeth in frustration, as Azalin was at WW.

Having said that I very much agree with the thrust of Azalin's and Loren's posts - in theory. But giving people the tunes ahead of time requires a much greater level of organization, and a much greater commitment from the students.

A good teacher may be able to revolutionize one's understanding of the possibilities of the Kesh jig. Yet I can't help feeling that if the word gets around that teacher A is studying the Kesh jig, most students would go elsewhere.

So this means the students learning new tunes before the course. Many teachers, including myself, prefer that students do not learn tunes from sheet music. Many students do not read anyway. So, if you want students to learn the tunes ahead of time, you have to make recordings of the tunes available ahead of time - either on a web site or via a cassette, etc. This would require a considerable level of organization and a good deal of prior work for both teacher and students. Students would need at least a few weeks to have time to work on the tunes, and they would all actually have to put the time in to do it (n'est-ce pas Guillaume?).

I find it hard to see such a big, sprawling organization as the Willie Clancy summer school getting such a scenario together. But it would be very good for the students to be able to choose between classes offering this approach and the "let's learn a new tune" variety.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 7:54 am

Maybe it would be less frustrating for the students of different levels if the classes were billed ahead of time with titles such as "proper phrasing of jigs/hornpipes" vs. "learning new tunes" vs. "ornamentation."

janice · Post by **janice** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:07 am

The Celtic College in Goderich, Ontario does create a teaching CD every year for the students prior to the week. The wonderful folks who run the week are terrifically organized, and the college, while not nearly as huge as Willie Week, typically has 300-350 students for the week. So it can be done..........End result is to make teaching ornamentation, phrasing,etc much easier as many students learn the tunes beforehand, and the student sessions also have a common tune base.............