Lift, lilt and swing in Irish music

pmcallis · Post by **pmcallis** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:29 pm

I have two questions for you experienced fluters:

1) Give me a working definition of each of these terms as used in Irish trad. music: lift, lilt and swing?

2) Are there any "flute specific" techniques a flute player can use to improve his/her ability in these areas?

much appreciated,
P

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:58 pm

I believe Grey Larsen's book addresses all of these
questions.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:58 pm

There's a related discussion going on over in the "Irish Traditional Music" forum here in Chiff and Fipple.

I don't think there are any hard definitions of those terms, it's more like "you know it when you hear it."

For me, lift is a sense of upward movement, of buoyancy in a tune, as opposed to drive, which I think of as forward momentum. Swing is something else again; I usually think of swing as coming from an outside influence on the music, e.g., jazz, but that's just me.

A year or two ago I posted a couple of samples to illustrate the difference between drive and swing: the Bothy Band playing the tune Rip the Calico in a very driving style, contrasted with Micheal O'Raghallaigh and his brothers playing the same tune with lots of lift and some swing. The sense you get from listening to the Bothy Band is that of a train hurtling down the tracks; the sense you get from the O'Raghallaigh Brothers is more like big bubbles of water rising to the surface of a pot of boiling water. There's as much upward motion as forward...to me that's the essence of "lift."

It would be nice if I could point you to those samples but it seems I've removed them from my site; I'll see if I can dig up the MP3s and repost them; it's an instructive contrast.

EDITED: Hey, I still have them up on the site:

http://www.firescribble.net/ripcalicobothy.mp3

http://www.firescribble.net/ripcalicooraghallaigh.mp3

For fluting, one way to add lift to your playing is to use more articulation (spaces between the notes) in conjunction with breath pulses. Again this is a hard thing to describe in words, so I'll see if I can post a clip.

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:16 pm

What I can tell is that drive is more focused on speed rather than expression where as lift is the opposite. You know what listen to those clips and try to get an idea they are really hard to explain in words.

rama · Post by **rama** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:10 pm

it's like talking, or like walking.

try this:

try walking with a bit of 'lift' (steady bounce) in your stride. then try walking like you were lilting along (maybe hum or lilt to yourself as you walk carefree). then try walking like you actually had some swing (more like a fluid rhythmic motion). and just simply feel the difference among the three styles. the key is your stride length (timing) might vary.

'lift' being pretty steady, not taking real long strides but springy steps, walking like you know where you are going and with a bit of purpose, and knowing you will get there.

'lilt' is a more carefree, nowhere to go, out for a stroll.

'swing' is like long easy strides, legs moving like 'arcs', slow at the beginning of movement, faster as the foot hits the ground and put a little dip in the knee, and slow on the back stride. like a basketball player

'drive' might be like walking fast (but controlled) cause you late for da bus! ...or like you gotta hit the bathroom real quick 'cause your about to go in your pants! there's always excitement and a feeling of being on edge -- you don't know if you are gonna make it or not!

oh i forgot at least one more...
'spaz' take a few steps, fall down, get up, take a few more steps, fall down, get up, speed up, slow down, step in dog pooh... this is my own personal style.

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:26 pm

Spaz

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:31 pm

rama wrote: 'spaz' take a few steps, fall down, get up, take a few more steps, fall down, get up, speed up, slow down, step in dog pooh... this is my own personal style.

Yeah, I tend to play with a lot of 'spaz'. Especially after a few beers.

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:10 am

Want to know the best way to figure out the difference between drive and lift in music? Take up dancing. That's what this music was originally built for, after all. You'll know the difference the first time you go "round the house" in any figure of any Irish set dance. If the music has lift, it will make you feel like you're being raised from the floor and set down gently in the next spot, only to be raised right back up again and moved along. If the music has drive, you'll feel like you're being pushed by the back and driven around the floor, somewhat against your will in the most egregious cases. For good dancing, you want lift, not drive. For toe-tappingly good concerts or sessions, you can have either. (BTW, speed is independent of lift or drive. Fast music can have lift, slower music can have drive - although it may be subtle.)

To get lift into your playing, my best advice is to take up dancing in order to figure out what lift is, then listen to a lot of music that has lift to it (while dancing or not, it really doesn't matter - although I'd suggest that if you're listening while holding onto a member of the opposite sex, you do it while dancing, lest you get distracted otherwise), and then figure out what you need to do to get that lift into your own playing. It is really rather a hard concept to put into words. (Who was it that said writing about music is like dancing about architecture?)

Post by **Nanohedron** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:11 pm

chas wrote:
rama wrote: 'spaz' take a few steps, fall down, get up, take a few more steps, fall down, get up, speed up, slow down, step in dog pooh... this is my own personal style.
Yeah, I tend to play with a lot of 'spaz'. Especially after a few beers.

Lift, lilt, swing, drive and spaz. Heh. Actually, I've been told of an oldtimer's term, "the gimp", which means rhythmic unsteadiness in one's playing. The fellow who told me of this (grains of salt all around, please, for although the fellow in question tends to know his stuff, he can sometimes misinterpret) said that this was not considered an undesirable quality back in the day. Anyone else heard of this? Personally, I think it's less of a term for a personal ITM style than a justification for poor technique, but what do I know. Still, when not playing for dancers, I have to admit that I do like to have a little bit of intentional gimp to my hornpipes. Hey, it's my personal style.

"Spaz" sounds like the modern equivalent of "the gimp".

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:19 pm

Apparently when I dance (Contra) I have a plentiful amount of "flail." Not sure it's desireable.

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:36 pm

Apparently when I dance (Contra) I have a plentiful amount of "flail." Not sure it's desireable.

Depends, is your partner a banjo?

Eric

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:38 pm

Wormdiet wrote:Apparently when I dance (Contra) I have a plentiful amount of "flail." Not sure it's desireable.

I think that is the dancing equivalent of spaz. Too much time in the pit

djm · Post by **djm** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:55 pm

There's a definite change in emphasis on the beats between the two samples offered. The Bothy cut is a rapid 12121212, whereas the O Raghallaigh cut is 1-231-231-231. Speed only effects the ability to spend time to emphasize different notes, but doesn't dictate how you have to play it. In otherwords, I think this is more a question of choices made in phrasing the tune versus just a question of speed.

Some players manage to fit a definite 6/8 jig rhythm into a reel. I don't know if this is a question of right or wrong as much as a question of individual taste.

djm

Eldarion · Post by **Eldarion** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:05 am

johnkerr wrote:If the music has lift, it will make you feel like you're being raised from the floor and set down gently in the next spot, only to be raised right back up again and moved along.

I like this description despite the fact that I don't dance. To me lift is something that is something a bit more subtle than swing or bounce (which seems to correlate to the physical meaning of the words). It makes the music feel wonderfully light, a bit hard to describe. I think good Clare musicians have heapfulls of it.

The thing about all these terms is that there is no exact definition of them (thank god), and people use them to describe different things in the music, assigning to them different meanings (valid to different extents). For me I would consider the playing in the O'Raghaillaigh brother's clip to have a hard driving swing. And the Bothy Band clip simply straight streaming way of playing - individual notes are not accented as strongly and the rhythm is more even. If you're discussing the music with a friend for example, it would be useful to know if they are using the words the same way you are or the descriptive words will not mean much at all.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:19 am

rama wrote: 'spaz' take a few steps, fall down, get up, take a few more steps, fall down, get up, speed up, slow down, step in dog pooh... this is my own personal style.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Although I'm not buying that one as describing you, mon frere; I know better.
However .... Add "fall face down in dog poo" and then you'll have me.