turn in the head? or not?

[Berti66]

When you are new to the flute, you get to do a lot of experimentation to find out what works for you.
Yesterday I was playing around with turning in and out the head to see what it would do for the sound and playability of this flute (dekeyzer).

I found that when I do just line up the middle of the embouchure with the middle of the fingerholes, I sound much better with plenty of volume too and makes this flute so much easier to play, while when I turn in the head as a lot of people do I get problems with playability (hands) and intonation.

now ......are we supposed to turn in the heads "for the right sound"?
do you turn in, if so how much. if not, why not?
or does it vary per flute you are playing, would be interesting to hear which flutes you do this and which not (if it is personal or that it's the flute which demands it?)
or does it depend on the effect you are looking for?

I am very interested to hear more on this.
berti

[Jumbuk]

When you are new to the flute, you get to do a lot of experimentation to find out what works for you.
Yesterday I was playing around with turning in and out the head to see what it would do for the sound and playability of this flute (dekeyzer).

I too am a beginner - about 5 months into the flute. When I started, I turned the head in like everyone else seemed to do. After a while, I experimented with different positions, and came to the same conclusion as you - it works best with the holes dead in line. I am sticking with this until I establish a 100% reliable embouchure - then I might see where my fingers are and move the head if it looks like it would make my hand positions more comfortable. For the moment, I am happy to keep it in line.

[peeplj]

There are various possibilities, here.

First, not every good player turns in. I have seen a couple of really fine players who turned out, usually because of the way they hold the flute. And there's nothing wrong with that, as everyone's body is different and so not everyone finds the same grip over time.

There are also unique differences between flutes. The sweet spot on my Hammy is turned in just a bit whereas on the old German 8-key, you have to turn it in way more.

Also, your embouchure and air control will change over time. You may find that a flute that plays well for you now lined up straight, in a couple of years will really sing positioned a bit differently.

Just my $.02.

--James

[GaryKelly]

I tend to make minor adjustments in rolling in or out every time I pick up the flute. Sometimes after a few minutes of 'warming up' I'll tweak the position again until I'm happy with the tone and settled in the playing position.

For me, the relative position of the embouchure hole wrt the tone-holes is primarily one of comfort for my hands and fingers; I have a bamboo D flute which I really can't play because the alignment of the tone-holes and embouchure is fixed, and to get the embouchure into a good position for a nice tone makes my hands uncomfortable and puts unacceptable strain on the fingers of my left hand (particularly the G-finger) which leads to pain in my fragile left elbow.

If you're playing ensemble, don't forget that rolling in or out affects the flute's pitch.

[Matt_Paris]

When I began, I lined the embouchure hole with the tone holes. Now I turn it in.

All the flute books from the 18th and beginning of 19th centuries describe the good position like that (Quantz, Tromlitz, Nicholson, Tulou...) But I know a very good player who turns the headjoint out, and most Boehm players line it.

Just find a comfortable position that suits you Some very good players had a weird position: Terry's website is very helpful as usual.

[jim stone]

All of the holes lined up or the embouchure hole
slightly in, no more than the outer edge of the
hole in the middle of the finger holes. I usually
go less than that--slightly in. Or lined up.

This seems a good place, it's where teachers
and flute makers have told me. However
whatever works for you on your flute.

I spent a lot of time tormenting myself about
this until I realized that it's OK to put the
hole where you want. No 'right' way.

[Jayhawk]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has had concerns about this issue. I've gone from all holes in line, to turned way in, back to just barely turned in. Also, this has varied by flute.

I once worried about this, but looking in the mirror one day (after I'd been playing for a couple of years) I realized even with the embouchure dead in line with the holes my funky lip (injured by a fire hydrant cap as a kid) was covering most of the embouchure anyway.

Do whatever works best for you, realize it may change, and practice sticking out your tongue at those who lecture you on this topic.

Eric

[johnkerr]

In and of itself, the relative position of the embouchure hole to the finger holes on the flute (i.e. rolled in, straight in line, or rolled out) makes absolutely no difference. What you are doing when you roll in or out is adjusting the position of the embouchure hole to the lips to find the best position for optimizing the tone and production you'll get out of the flute. But in addition to this, you'll need to find the most comfortable arm and wrist position to hold the flute and place it to your lips. The combination of comfortable arm and wrist position and optimum lip placement is what will determine whether you need to roll the headjoint in, keep it in line, or roll it out.

For those of you who say that sometimes you need to adjust the amount you roll in or out in order to find the sweet spot on a particular flute, or on the same flute from one day to the next, what is really happening there is that your arm and wrist position relative to the flute is changing slightly from what was comfortable before, meaning that you need to adjust the headjoint a bit to compensate. Once you've learned it, the position of your lip muscles required to play the flute is not going to vary much from day to day (although over the long run it might). On the other hand, compared to the lips the arms and shoulders are very large. A one or two inch variation from day to day in what feels comfortable to you is very likely, and given the physics of this a one inch change in arm position, or even a slight rotation in what feels comfortable to your wrists, is going to require a corresponding slight change at your lips in order to produce the same tone.

So don't obsess over whether or not you need to roll in while the guy next to you doesn't. Just find the best position for you, and play!

[Tom O'Farrell]

If you find the sweet spot just using the headjoint alone not attached to the flute and then put it on the flute and try to achieve the same thing but alter the rotation of the rest of the flute to suit your wrist/hands for the most comfortable position, considering the two subjects to be separate things, one to do with the sound and one to do with long term playing comfort then this is a good starting point for me with a new flute. I play both Boehm and wood (pesky little oval embouchure) and find the outer edge of the blowhole lined up with almost but not quite the outer edge of the c# hole to be my best playing spot on both flutes. Turned in but only about a quarter of the c# hole size. It changes a bit over a few hours of playing, because my lips go mushy and I compensate in some inexplicable way, mostly by simply taking a ten minute break, but not by altering the way I have set up the flute. I mark my flutes to make life easier when stting them up.
I know there is considerable volume of opinion that says you should start practice on the lower notes when using the wood flute, but James Galway is adamant on not doing this with a metal boehm system flute and he is absolutely correct in my experience, he says always start practice periods at the upper end of the middle octave, I use A as Galway says to do but Rampall suggested using G, in either case I think working more on the higher notes helps to strengthen the lip muscles and playing the lower notes does'nt do it as well. The lower notes come easier with this habit ingrained, I believe, well.... it works for me anyway.

[bang]

couple of quick bits that might be relevant:

playing rolled in, or closer to the edge of the embouchure hole, means using less air in the blow. this requires more subtle control, so in my experience playing closer is harder initially. the pay off is more responsive and harder tone, but this takes time.

however you decide to blow, find the right roll in/out with your head in an upright position. tilting the head forward will change the degree of roll. if the "right" roll is found with the head upright, it encourages more relaxed playing.

fwiw, & enjoy! /dan

[seisflutes]

I've gone from rolled way out(back of embouchure in line with fingerholes) to in line to somewhat in(outer edge of embouchure in line with holes), to back in line, to back in, to way in(outer edge of embouchure in line with back edge of holes), and back to somewhat in. I tend to play with it every time I put the flute together, see what sounds best at the moment.

[Wormdiet]

I have a friend who doesn;t really use her tuning slide much at all - she roles in the flute (And her head) to flatten, rolls out to sharpen. . . to my way of thinking it makes more sense to find a consistent blowing angle and then adjust via slide, but I suppose there are advantages to the other method.

[Chiffed]

The best advice I ever got was from a flute teacher who had a pronounced asymmetry in her jaw and lips, as well as a rather strange right hand. She played with an embouchure and hand position that would have been painful if not impossible for me to reproduce, but she sounded fantastic. Her advice: The instrument is here to serve the music in you; you are not here to serve an instrument.

[Berti66]

that's so cool! great responses also.......interesting to read other people's experiences and very happy with my sound right now with the head lined up........so much easier to relax the hands also.

cheers
berti

[SoTX]

The Boehm flute has a naturally bright sound that tends to shrill when played turned in. It is typically played "lined up" because that way it produces a sweet, but still sufficiently powerful, sound.

Wooden flutes, probably because of the conical bore, don't have the same tendancy to be shrill. By turning the head in, as was routinely recommended in the 19th century, it is possible to get a reedy sound with lots of interesting harmonics. Played in the Boehm style to my ear the tone is less interesting. Of course tastes differ. And from contemporary documents it seems 19C players didn't turn it in as much as some modern Irish players.

The cylindrical (Boehm) flute and the conical flute aren't really the same instrument. Different principles apply.

The best advice seems to be, experiment. Find out how to get different tones at different volumes in different registers. Then do what fits the music and the venue.

-- Don