Leaky Sides Question...

[Brian Lee]

So on a few of the reeds, they've exhibited this strange opening at the sides as they are tied on to the staple. It seems unusual to me as both the base and the tip are completely closed and sealed well. It's just the middle section that almost seems to bow away from itself on both sides fo the slips.

I made sure that the slips I've used were as flat and straight as possible by checking against a sqare, and double checking again after the gouge and finish sanding on the inner slip surface. But for some strange reason I'm getting this gap now and again.

Don't know how well this shows what I've got here, but I'll try:



Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong that would cause this? The reed in the photo is longer than normal and likely will be chopped back some, but probably no more than 0.07"-0.08". I'm wondering if I'm missing something important after all this time when I'm tying the thing up? I usually also will tie the slips to the stape for a day or so, then unwrap it all, and re-bind fresh.

Any Guesses?

[Joseph E. Smith]

This can happen when the binding has been tied too far up. Also, sometimes the slip may have a slight warp to it. When I have come across this, and I know that I haven't tied too far up, I'll go ahead and scrape it, then fix the bridle to it. Nine times out of ten this usually remedies the issue. If it doesn't, I'll start over with a new slip.

Hope this helps some.

[billh]

I actually find this to be pretty common. However, about 50% of the time the problem goes away when the reed is initially scraped, since the blades tend to flatten a bit and then the sides come together.

I think it has to do with the fact that in some reedmaking styles (including Benedict K's), the reed blades form a sort of section-of-a-cone instead of a section of a cylinder. In such a case, if the reed sides stay perfectly parallel, the shoulders will 'touch first' along with the very tip of the reed.

At this stage I notice that BK trims off the corner of the shoulder just above the wrapping, so that the reed sides end up slightly curved.

If the point where the shoulders touch is underneath the wrap, or right at the top of the wrap, the problem is harder to correct since you can't 'relieve' the shoulders. Maybe this ties in (no pun intended) to JES's observation that this can accompany an excessively high wrap.

In my experience, if you do go for the 'boat shaped' reed head (and I think it does have some advantages), the shape has to be "just so", i.e. very slight changes in shape can make or break the result.

I haven't quite sussed out exactly how to prevent this problem yet, but I have noticed that making the reed tails (more specifically, the area at the top of the tails where the reed will come together) thinner can reduce the problem, and reduce cracking as well.

Anyone else have any ideas about this, assuming that the slip is uniform and properly shaped (i.e. the source of the problem has to do with the deformation of the reed at tie-up, and not some asymmetry or defect in the slips) ?

Bill

[djm]

I have a piece of plate glass approx 10" square that I use to sand on, ensuring a flat surface. Giving the slip a light rub on 600 grit paper helps to ensure the sides really are level - not enough to flatten the sides, just to even them out.

djm

[billh]

I don't think Brian's problem is a levelness issue, it looks suspiciously like this particular variety of side leak where the sides get 'levered' open due to reed head geometry.

[srfmowman]

Brian,

The answer is soooo obvious that it has escaped everyone so far. The builder of the reed (that would be you) is warped and so all your reeds have an innate warpiness (new word). I think if you apply a thong, I mean a bridle, it will hide your reeds sins from the world.

[ausdag]

Yep, I have this problem too commonly. Nothing at all to do with levelness of the blades. I remedied mine with Bill's suggestion about rounding the shoulders slightly. Even then, with gaps apparently gone to the naked eye, I still had a disproportionate amount of squeeks and squeals. So I lightly rubbed the edges along some beeswax and that has cured the problem.

DavidG

[fancypiper]

I find that the "square" design of reed shows this problem more than the "tapered shoulder" design.

My chanter likes the "square" design (the Es are better in tune), so I usually use a little bit of the white "Elmer's" glue to seal them airtight.

Sometimes, the sides close and seal good after scraping and tuning, but I usually have to seal the sides at sometime during the construction and tuning of the reed head.

To convert to the tapered shoulder design of reed head, you can bind the lips, unbind from and remove the staple, then sand the shoulders so that they taper smoothly down from about 1/2" below the lips down to the tail. I chamfer the "meat" of the shoulder/tail where the binding goes as well to avoid the "step up" from the staple to the arundo donax.

Use some fine grit (I use 1000 wet/dry) to remove any "fuzz" on the inside of the head where you sanded the shoulders, then rebind to the staple. You may need a different bridle as it sits at the bottom and won't slide up and down the head with this design.

[AlanB]

Hello Brian,

No-one looking to the staple as the problem?

If you use thin walled staple tubing or over-taper the staple, this often causes the blades to part on tying. Particularly over-tapered, which often end up open from the blade tips down, and can only be remedied by a high placed bridle, and really that's not a happy place to be.

A good experiment is to put your tubing on the mandrel (pref 4mmID/5mmOD tubing, if it's thinner walled, then take that into account, though I think anything less than 0.5mm wall makes the taper too difficult to make carefully due to the metal spreading too easily), form the eye and about 5mm of the taper only (you could push your staple up the mandrel so 20mm of the mandrel tip is showing , this will not allow you to form a full taper), try tying on to a reed head (an old ready scraped one is best to avoid splitting and time/cane wasting). Then undo and form the staple nearer the staple tip incremently (sp?) seeing what happens each time you re-tie (obviously you will need 2 or 3 heads to play with, all this tying on and stuff will knacker them quickly).

You should find that there is a point where all is snug and all the tension goes into tying the the tails on rather than forcing/bending them into place along the staple length. (based on a slip of 1.5mm, tails gouged to approx 1mm, tails slightly 'bottleneck' design).

If you haven't got the NPU reedmaking DVD, get it, it will make a difference to the job I'm sure.

[billh]

I find that the "square" design of reed shows this problem more than the "tapered shoulder" design.

My chanter likes the "square" design (the Es are better in tune), so I usually use a little bit of the white "Elmer's" glue to seal them airtight.
....

As for Elmer's/Sobo, DMQ used to recommend this (see The Pipers' Despair) but I believe he's gone off it now IIRC, thinks it affects the tone. Of course if it'a a choice between that, and binning the reed...

If the E's like more volume above the staple (which the square shoulders can give), you might try using a slightly more open eye/thicker staple/etc. to achieve the same volume increase via the reed _thickness_ rather than width. This allows you to use the tapered-shoulder reed shape. In this case you want to avoid "gouging the tails" as such, using a more gradual tail thinning process instead, so that the thinner tails don't come at the expense of reducing the volume above the staple. The latter (reduced volume above the staple) is a side-effect of gouging the tails without extending the thinning action into the blades. I think the 'chamber carving' approach can be seen as an attempt to have it both ways, e.g. thin tails without reduced volume. In this light, it's no surprise that several chamber carving methods seem to have evolved so that the tail-gouge and chamber have merged into one long excursion into the inner blades.

BK seems to achieve the right tail tension/thickness while maintaining good volume at the base by spreading this thinned area more gradually over the tails and "base" of the reed.

FWIW, BK's reeds seem much thicker at the base, seen edge-on, than the picture from Brian which started this discussion. Same used to be true of my own. My Es got a lot better once I started making them thicker in this dimension.

Bill

[fancypiper]

As for Elmer's/Sobo, DMQ used to recommend this (see The Pipers' Despair) but I believe he's gone off it now IIRC, thinks it affects the tone. Of course if it'a a choice between that, and binning the reed...

I can't tell any difference in the tone, but I have 65 year old ears and tinnitus in both ears now.

If the E's like more volume above the staple (which the square shoulders can give), you might try using a slightly more open eye/thicker staple/etc. to achieve the same volume increase via the reed _thickness_ rather than width. This allows you to use the tapered-shoulder reed shape. In this case you want to avoid "gouging the tails" as such, using a more gradual tail thinning process instead, so that the thinner tails don't come at the expense of reducing the volume above the staple.

My reeds are as wide as I can make them and they will still go into the reed cap.

I sand my slips so that there is some "meat" left on the edges rather than aiming at a certain center thickness of the slip.

I use a rolled copper roofing flashing (0.020") staple with a 0.062" narrow dimention for the eye, and the chanter still wants the square design for the least pressure changes to play the Es in tune. I am currently playing a David Daye reed head which I soaked several weeks in neetsfoot oil, tied onto one of my staples and the sides are sealed nicely. I may have to change the bridle, however, as either octave A or octave B doesn't want to hold, depending on the location of the bridle, and I can hear a "buzz" in that note. I am hoping that placing the bridle fixed at the top of the wrap will cure this problem. At least, that cured some bad notes on some of my reeds.

It takes more care and time to adjust the lip opening with the fixed bridle, though, but I have had the best luck with the bridle being fixed and I haven't broken any of them (yet).

BTW, this reed is louder than the unsoaked head, but I did have to trim the lips some on that one, so it needs more scraping, I think.

The latter (reduced volume above the staple) is a side-effect of gouging the tails without extending the thinning action into the blades. I think the 'chamber carving' approach can be seen as an attempt to have it both ways, e.g. thin tails without reduced volume. In this light, it's no surprise that several chamber carving methods seem to have evolved so that the tail-gouge and chamber have merged into one long excursion into the inner blades.

I don't gouge the tails or carve a chamber. I only chamfer the bark from the tails to make a smooth "step up" from the staple to the head.

BK seems to achieve the right tail tension/thickness while maintaining good volume at the base by spreading this thinned area more gradually over the tails and "base" of the reed.

My reeds end up with a pretty thick base, but the scraped area has a "dip" or "scoop" where I have widened the V of the sanding to the U shape in order to bring in the hard bottom D.

[billh]

BTW, Thanks a lot AlanB for pointing out what was staring us in the face. Yeah, the staple surely has a huge influence on this part of the tie-up geometry. I need to try your experiment...

My reeds are as wide as I can make them and they will still go into the reed cap.

I didn't mention width. I was talking about "thickness" seen edge-on. Your report of 0.020" flashing with a 0.062" eye seems fairly normal - maybe the eye could be a little bit more open, say 0.067". Or you could try to get the old-fashioned 0.022" flashing. I guess even in the US sheet metal gauges have been metricated/rationalized so this may be getting harder to come by.

My reeds end up with a pretty thick base, but the scraped area has a "dip" or "scoop" where I have widened the V of the sanding to the U shape in order to bring in the hard bottom D.

You might try adjusting dimensions to allow for a thinner slip; this may make a more V-shaped scrape work for you.

Bill

[fancypiper]

You might try adjusting dimensions to allow for a thinner slip; this may make a more V-shaped scrape work for you.

Bill

I had worse results with thinner slips. My Hillmann chanter is a little tricky to reed. I had to sleeve the throat with a 5 cm long brass tubing (it was 7/32") and rush it above the back D in order to ever get a hard D. It is happiest with a wide head and thicker slips than the other chanters I have.

I have some 0.025" copper sheet, but I haven't tried it for a staple yet. I am very close to a good design (after 11 years of attempts and 2 reed making classes at Elkins, WV) for this chanter. It is the best tuned and easiest playing chanter that I have in D.

[Lorenzo]

It can be a combination of the staple, the fit, the tying, the shape of the shoulders, and the edges being too thin. How a reed is tied and fitted to the staple is the most important stage of the whole process.

If the edges are left thicker, some reed makers soften the shoulders and tails with a little water so they form to the staple perfectly when tied. If there is any air space between the staple and the blades, at the top and back where they are tapered to each other, and before tying, the gap may dissappear as it is tied, but something has to give somewhere else...and usually it's the sides of the blades that raise in the middle, or the elevation at the lips.

One thing I've noticed with AlanB's reeds, and other great reeds, is that if one should have to untied the reed and adjust the slips out further (for example), the reed is still stable and airtight just holding them together without even retying the reed. Yep, the reed sounds just fine sucking through the staple as you slide it in and out, pinching the blades to the staple. This can only mean one thing: it's a perfect fit.

Tim Britton use to leave a tapered gap along the sides of the blades before tying, then watch it close as he tied it, leaving the blades under pressure.

The best fitted reeds need no glue or wax...anywhere, nor do they need tied real tight to work like they should.

[Joseph E. Smith]

The best fitted reeds need no glue or wax...anywhere, nor do they need tied real tight to work like they should.

I am of the opinion that the use of glue for attaching the reed head to the staple is a bad practice, in as much as it makes the reed impossible to adjust or fix when the time comes... and it does come to many reeds... as BK will tell you, reeds are living things, and respond to changes in their environment.

Also, I don't feel glue can be good to the over all tone of the reed. Just my thought on the matter, wrong or right.