Why all the hate?

S.B.O'Gill · Post by **S.B.O'Gill** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:17 am

Dear Forum,

Hi. I am new to the group and I would like to introduce myself. I'm S.B. O'Gill from rural western Kentucky. I'm currently a student of the recorder and I recently bought a whistle. I have been a life long fan of Celtic music probably owing to the fact that I am of predominately Irish decent. Hah hah hah, I used to listen to Celtic music before it was "cool”--before Titanic and River Dance. I still have some old vinyl of The Clancy Brothers and The Chieftains! Anyway, the whistle is a logical choice of instruments for me--however I do think the recorder is a wonderful instrument and has a beautiful sound. Since I have been surfing around and investigating the "whistle community" out on the internet, I have detected some feelings of disdain for recorders and recorder player. I even saw one web page that compared a recorder to an electric razor. LOL! I thought that was funny, but I just wondered what the basis of all this "competitiveness" and contempt is. Hopefully it is good-natured in spirit.

anniemcu · Post by **anniemcu** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:28 am

I'll join you in waiting to see what the answer is, as I've long wondered, but never gotten around to actually asking... at least *some* of the time, didn't appear to be a joke at all... hope I'm wrong.

mvhplank · Post by **mvhplank** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:30 am

Most of the r****der bashing is in good spirit, I think. Or maybe more of an indoor sport. But you'll no doubt have noticed that everyone seems to need to have someone to bash.

I grew up in Alabama, where college football is avidly followed (to say the least). The bashing-type jokes there were all at the expense of either University of Alabama or Auburn University.

For example:

Alabama Fan: "Did you hear about the Auburn student who was found dead with 104 holes in his face? He was trying to learn to eat with a fork."

However, unlike college football, there are more substantial differences between recorders and whistles, which you have no doubt already noticed. A lot of us like the less refined, free-spirited sound of a whistle, and just as many of us enjoy trying out all the different types of whistles out there. There aren't a whole lot of variations in the recorder world, and having extra finger holes feels like cheating to some of us (okay, to me).

Think of whistles as haiku--it's a simple, restrictive form yet capable of infinite beauty and variations.

M

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:40 am

Hi S.B.O'Gill, it's very nice to meet you.

I'm a beginner at whistling and took a crack at the recorder once long ago. I too was very puzzled by the comments about recorders that I would notice. I have always thought of the recorder as a fine instrument and I have heard some magnificent recorder performances---I guess I'm really speaking of classical music here.

Anyway, I asked someone what the deal was with recorders. The person said that recorders have a bad reputation because apparently a lot of recorder players go to Irish Traditional Music sessions and think they can just play these simple tunes on the recorder and make Irish music. I think he meant that they play the written music but not in an Irish style and they are not aware of it. He also said that the recorder had a hooty sound he, or maybe everyone, didn't like in a session.

So I'm just repeating what this person said. I have never been to a session. He was just one person, a very nice one, who was explaining to me where these jokes come from. There are similar jokes about the players of many of instruments, the bodhran comes to mind. People tend, apparently, to think you just bang on the bodhran and that is okay. But it isn't okay. You must spend as much time learning to play the bodhran properly as anything else.

I hope it is good natured in spirit, but I'll tell you one thing. I'm pretty sure you don't want to walk into a session with a recorder.

Post by **Dale** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:41 am

As pointed out, most of this anti-recorder thing is good-natured and not really serious. I only have two problems with recorders:

1. I think music education programs for kids pick the wrong instrument when they opt for recorders. The whistle is a better idea.

2. I think they sound positively dreadful, at least 90% of the time.

But you're talking to a guy who spent an hour last night picking out the melody of the main theme of the movie "The Piano" on a soprano ukulele, while watching a FASCINATING documentary on television about Mississippi Delta blues ("You See Me Laughin').

Dale

Kelhorn Mike · Post by **Kelhorn Mike** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:02 am

Just a couple of quick comments. Have to take issue with the
statement that there is little variation among recorders. Numerous
copies of original Renaissance and Baroque recorders available as well
as lots of contemporary designs. See the websites of just two major
German manufacturers and you'll see what I mean. www.mollenhauer.
com & www.moeck.com and there are many, many more. Large
workshops/factories to individual makers. Secondly, years ago
my wife played recorder in Irish Sessions and nobody gave her
a hard time. But then she is so cute and sweet nobody would hardly
dare. She still plays ITM on her recorder with her amatuer group
for weddings and such. O'Carolan in particular I think sounds
lovely on recorder. Just my HMO.

Kelhorn Mike

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:14 am

I think for almost all instruments it is how it is played that makes the difference. It seems to me that O'Carolan would be lovely on the recorder---I may be wrong but wasn't his music quite influenced by the European classical music of the time? I could be totally wrong.

I suppose one could say that the recorder is not a traditional ITM instrument, but once one says that it seems nothing more really needs to be said. Some may not care for the sound, and others will. But that is true for instruments that are traditional ITM instruments as well. There might be some groups of people that just want to have traditional instruments playing, but there are other groups too, it sounds like, that don't mind unusual instruments. So everyone can play.

S.B.O'Gill · Post by **S.B.O'Gill** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:17 am

What does ITM mean? Hah hah hah! I'm sure it will be evident as soon as you tell me.

BigDavy · Post by **BigDavy** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:26 am

Hi SB O'Gill

Take it with a pinch of salt. The recorder can sound absolutely wonderful in ITM - especially O'Carolan. The best ever version of Fanny Power I heard was played as a duet on harp and bass recorder.

Cynth - you have heard recorder in ITM - the OBD Monaghan Jig track was played on a recorder.

David

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:31 am

ITM stands for Irish Traditional Music.

For what its worth, I think recorders sound fine if they're played in a group or in an early music consort. Of course, the players need to be good and they need to be played in tune. Amateur players are not always in tune. There was (stil is?) a Scottish band called Capercaille (sp?). They had a recorder player who was very good but I still didn't like it for traditional tunes.

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:35 am

ITM means Irish Traditional Music.
From my point of view, when I say something bad about re****ers or players I'm not serious about it eighter, it's just a bit of fun in good spirit.
If I have any real disdaint towards re****ers and players of that instrument it originates in the snobbery of many of those players. They think they are better/finer than whistle players, because they think they can play everything any whistler would throw at them. Sure, they could probably hit all the notes at the same speed as a whistler, but they miss out all nuances of the music and turns it dead, like dots on a paper sheet.
Saying all re****er players are like that would be far worse than their snobbery however, if you're serious about it.
And, like many others, I don't enjoy the sound of the re****er one bit.

Cheers

jbarter · Post by **jbarter** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:38 am

We only take the mick out of recorders when it's the banjo player's day off.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:44 am

BigDavy wrote:Cynth - you have heard recorder in ITM - the OBD Monaghan Jig track was played on a recorder.

Really?

I'm listening to it right now. I don't see how anyone would not like how it sounds and no one would make fun of that playing, that's for darn sure. It sounds just excellent. I guess I thought I would be able to tell the difference between a pennywhistle and a recorder, I'm not sure why, but there you have it. I'm not an expert on either.

BigDavy is talking about the group called Old Blind Dogs. They are really good. And they play the recorder.

springrobin · Post by **springrobin** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:48 am

I agree that whistles would be more practical than recorders for kids. Both my kids went through recorder torture in school when their hands were too small to comfortably cover the holes. Kind of hard to concentrate on the tune when you can barely get the notes.

Personally, I bought 3 (alto, soprano, sopranino) 30 years ago when I played only Boehm flute because because they were SO simple (compared to keyed instruments) and I liked the woody sound. That was before I got WHOA......

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:03 am

Cynth wrote:BigDavy is talking about the group called Old Blind Dogs. They are really good. And they play the recorder.

Not in ages and ages. That was six or seven lineups ago for them, back before Jim Malcolm and Rory Campbell joined up. Now it's whistles all the way.

I think the thing about recorders is a lot of us associate them with really bad bands of elementary school kids, forced to learn then en masse despite lacking the attitude or desire to make music. For some sadistic reason they broadcast them hereabouts on the local cable channel. It's lucky that all involved are not put off of music forever....

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Why all the hate?

Why all the hate?

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