Pitch Correcters and Faded endings
- Lorenzo
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Pitch Correcters and Faded endings
I was listening to Brian McNamara's A Piper's Dream again for the first time in nearly a year. I noticed there was one ornament that reminded me of the tap tap you can get when using certain pitch correcters. I know the effect from having heard it in the studio last year with a non-ITM band I play with once in a while (after recording, we had to touch up a couple notes that were too far out of tune). I'm sure Brian doesn't use one, nor does he need to use one, but it made me wonder after I figured out why he (probably) used the faded endings on nearly every cut of the album.
I'm almost sure he recorded three tracks seperately -- track 1--the chanter; track 2--the drones; track 3--the regs. And that's the reason why he must have faded the endings (you can't end them at the same exact time).
The reason why he might have recorded seperately would be to keep the drones from wavering while playing the chanter's highest notes--if you know what I mean. And volume--three or four microphones aimed at the instrument would allow the recording engineer to balance or adjust the volumes between the three parts, but if that were the case, there'd be no need to fade. Then there's the possiblility of adding certain reg notes which might be difficult to get perfect while playing the whole instrument at the same time -- but surely Brian could do that easily enough, although it can be next to impossible to play the low notes of the regs at the same time as playing the low notes of the chanter--esp C and B sets!!
Another clue to his (possibly) recording the three parts seperately is the way the tunes start. You hear no bellows or air, nor do you hear the normal sound of the reeds when the drones are switched on or when the drones and chanter begin at the same instant (not that a piper has to ever do that--I understand). It's like the drones were already humming when the recorder began.
No criticism, just looking at some possible reasons why all the fading and why recording on seperate track might make one sound better. BTW, anyone ever tried a pitch corrector on the upper or lower E after recording?
I'm almost sure he recorded three tracks seperately -- track 1--the chanter; track 2--the drones; track 3--the regs. And that's the reason why he must have faded the endings (you can't end them at the same exact time).
The reason why he might have recorded seperately would be to keep the drones from wavering while playing the chanter's highest notes--if you know what I mean. And volume--three or four microphones aimed at the instrument would allow the recording engineer to balance or adjust the volumes between the three parts, but if that were the case, there'd be no need to fade. Then there's the possiblility of adding certain reg notes which might be difficult to get perfect while playing the whole instrument at the same time -- but surely Brian could do that easily enough, although it can be next to impossible to play the low notes of the regs at the same time as playing the low notes of the chanter--esp C and B sets!!
Another clue to his (possibly) recording the three parts seperately is the way the tunes start. You hear no bellows or air, nor do you hear the normal sound of the reeds when the drones are switched on or when the drones and chanter begin at the same instant (not that a piper has to ever do that--I understand). It's like the drones were already humming when the recorder began.
No criticism, just looking at some possible reasons why all the fading and why recording on seperate track might make one sound better. BTW, anyone ever tried a pitch corrector on the upper or lower E after recording?
- djm
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Another reason might be just to correct one or two flubs or squeeks. Introducing many mics on one source can also raise the spectre of phase errors.
But this is all speculation. I have not met Brian, but people who have tell me he is a nice guy and very approachable. Why not contact him through his web site and ask him directly? Who knows, you may even get some inside poop on recording techniques for UPs.
I have a voice processor that can do pitch correction, but have never tried it on UPs. I would rather try and capture the harmonic entrainment that comes from the full set going than trying to split individual parts of the set out and then try to recombine them in the mix.
djm
But this is all speculation. I have not met Brian, but people who have tell me he is a nice guy and very approachable. Why not contact him through his web site and ask him directly? Who knows, you may even get some inside poop on recording techniques for UPs.
I have a voice processor that can do pitch correction, but have never tried it on UPs. I would rather try and capture the harmonic entrainment that comes from the full set going than trying to split individual parts of the set out and then try to recombine them in the mix.
djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
- misterpatrick
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- Joseph E. Smith
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I am of the opinion that the fading and other studio stuff you noticed were likely the idea and action of the sound dude. Brian McNamara is too particular about piping, especially his, to have recorded each aspect of his playing seperately... IMHO... but, who can say for sure other than Brian himself.
His playing, live, is as good or better than any recording I have of his. I have the recording that you are speaking of, and I too was curious about the fade outs. There are little squeaks and other unintentional sounds that can be heard which haven't been edited out... why leave those in, and not the others?
Interesting.
His playing, live, is as good or better than any recording I have of his. I have the recording that you are speaking of, and I too was curious about the fade outs. There are little squeaks and other unintentional sounds that can be heard which haven't been edited out... why leave those in, and not the others?
Interesting.
- PJ
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For a moment there, I though Lorenzo was going to accuse BMcN of being Milli Vanilli.
I don't know about how he recorded the tunes but don't a lot of pipers separate the chanter, drones and regs when recording?
Listening to the Pipers Gathering CD, the main difference I noticed between BMcN's studio and live recordings is that he plays faster live (and you can hear his foot tapping).
I don't know about how he recorded the tunes but don't a lot of pipers separate the chanter, drones and regs when recording?
Listening to the Pipers Gathering CD, the main difference I noticed between BMcN's studio and live recordings is that he plays faster live (and you can hear his foot tapping).
PJ
- ausdag
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Kind of related but this time on Sean Potts CD - can't tell you the name of the CD or the track (#4), but it starts out as an air and then goes into a minor key reel. As soon as the reel starts there is a distinct change in tone of the chanter as if the reel is 'spliced' onto the air. It sounds just like what happened when my sister, doing her Bachelor of Sonology at the Queensland Conervatorium of Music, recorded Adrian Jefferies and had to edit a tune on to the end of a previously recorded track - tuning was spot on but a sudden albeit very slight change in tone give it away.
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DavidG
Cheers,
DavidG
David (ausdag) Goldsworthy
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- morten
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Top of the line tuning software can be fantastic. Recently I did some studio work for Kristian Lilholt (danish musician - part of a very famous danish folk-rock band).
We recorded the bits and pieces in Sweet silence studios in Copenhagen (famous place - Ringo Star, Metallica, Chet Baker, Oscar Peterson etc. recorded here...). Two vintage Neumann mics fed into Protools, a bit of processing, and the sound was great.
The tuning wasn't. At some point during the solo I'm playing the same part as an electric guitar and the tuning had to be spot on (lot of half-holing and weird tones in there. The solo was originallly written for the guitar). In comes the Antares auto tune plugin, and it worked.... No difference in tone and sound.
I want one permanently installed on my pipes.....
/Morten
We recorded the bits and pieces in Sweet silence studios in Copenhagen (famous place - Ringo Star, Metallica, Chet Baker, Oscar Peterson etc. recorded here...). Two vintage Neumann mics fed into Protools, a bit of processing, and the sound was great.
The tuning wasn't. At some point during the solo I'm playing the same part as an electric guitar and the tuning had to be spot on (lot of half-holing and weird tones in there. The solo was originallly written for the guitar). In comes the Antares auto tune plugin, and it worked.... No difference in tone and sound.
I want one permanently installed on my pipes.....
/Morten
- PJ
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By coincidence, I was reading an article on BMcN which also discusses the fade-out of the pipes, although in a slightly different context:
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/b_mcnam.htm
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/b_mcnam.htm
PJ
- Lorenzo
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Good artlicle, PJ. I had heard discussion of Brian's fadeouts somewhere before but never thought about why he might have done it. I can see using it as an effect on a tune or two, but when you hear it on nealy all the cuts...it makes you wonder, and the only reason I can think of is the chanter and drone may not stop at the exact same time. On his new album, I can hear the chanter stop a split second before the drones on a couple of sets.
Brian is one of my favorite pipers and I don't really care if he might have over-dubbed the drones or regs.
Brian is one of my favorite pipers and I don't really care if he might have over-dubbed the drones or regs.
- Lorenzo
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Sounds pretty cool, morten. That must have been a lot of fun to be in a studio like that. You'll have to post a clip of that sometime.morten wrote:Top of the line tuning software can be fantastic. Recently I did some studio work for Kristian Lilholt (danish musician - part of a very famous danish folk-rock band).
We recorded the bits and pieces in Sweet silence studios in Copenhagen (famous place - Ringo Star, Metallica, Chet Baker, Oscar Peterson etc. recorded here...). Two vintage Neumann mics fed into Protools, a bit of processing, and the sound was great.
The tuning wasn't. At some point during the solo I'm playing the same part as an electric guitar and the tuning had to be spot on (lot of half-holing and weird tones in there. The solo was originallly written for the guitar). In comes the Antares auto tune plugin, and it worked.... No difference in tone and sound.
I want one permanently installed on my pipes.....
/Morten
- DMQuinn
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Benedict Koehler has aksed me to pass along this comment:
Having been present while Brian was recording "Fort of the Jewels" I can state unequivocally that there was no multi-tracking of pipes (ie. drones, regs and chanter recorded separately) whatsoever and that in fact Brian was disturbed to learn that such multi-tracking is not uncommon practice. It seems therefore highly unlikely to me that his procedure would have been any different for "A Piper's Dream".
Brian also tells me that he has never used a pitch correction device and would never consider doing so. What you hear is Brian playing pipes; drones, regs, and chanter all at one go. He sounds terrific because he is a terrific piper.
The fadeouts on "A Piper's Dream" were a unilateral decision on the part of an engineer; by the time Brian heard the results the original masters had been destroyed. He was upset to say the least.
Having been present while Brian was recording "Fort of the Jewels" I can state unequivocally that there was no multi-tracking of pipes (ie. drones, regs and chanter recorded separately) whatsoever and that in fact Brian was disturbed to learn that such multi-tracking is not uncommon practice. It seems therefore highly unlikely to me that his procedure would have been any different for "A Piper's Dream".
Brian also tells me that he has never used a pitch correction device and would never consider doing so. What you hear is Brian playing pipes; drones, regs, and chanter all at one go. He sounds terrific because he is a terrific piper.
The fadeouts on "A Piper's Dream" were a unilateral decision on the part of an engineer; by the time Brian heard the results the original masters had been destroyed. He was upset to say the least.
- Joseph E. Smith
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- Lorenzo
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In the sleeve notes for Fort of the Jewels Brian makes it clear how he recorded the pipes. He says:
A recording artist nearly always owns (and pays for) the original copies and has exclusive rights to remix them at any time in the future. The recording artist would also be sent a copy for approval before sending off the master copy for reproduction or distribution. Normally, a recording artist is involved all the way in the studio, from start to finish, working closely with the engineer as to acceptable levels and effects on the recording...as is indicated on the sleeve credits.
- "I have attempted in this production to capture my music in its most natural condition, at least within the confines of a recording studio, and to present it free of any artificial sound engineering treatment. To this end all of the tracks included represent intact first or second 'takes' using a single microphone."
A recording artist nearly always owns (and pays for) the original copies and has exclusive rights to remix them at any time in the future. The recording artist would also be sent a copy for approval before sending off the master copy for reproduction or distribution. Normally, a recording artist is involved all the way in the studio, from start to finish, working closely with the engineer as to acceptable levels and effects on the recording...as is indicated on the sleeve credits.