philosophical/theological question

[Lambchop]

Hmmm, if this had happened to me, I would think that the individual felt I was trying to force my beliefs on him and was upset by this. Not by the prayer, but by the implication that he was a bad person because he was an athiest.

Now, realistically, nobody can force their beliefs on you, but it's still really aggravating to think that someone is even thinking they should force their beliefs on you. Even if you aren't, they're likely to think you are.

It's all very tangled and confused.

But, really, one never has to worry about why things are if one simply follows good etiquette. Manners are there to help us through all those ghastly life situations during which we can find ourselves stepping in it and looking even worse than usual.

That's why one never discusses religion--there are far too many treacherous little piles to step in! It's only acceptable to mention religion if you're already sure what faith someone is, and then you have to tailor your remarks in such a way that you don't tread on anything that could be controversial or upsetting or potentially critical.

"I'm going to prayer meeting. Would you like to go?" "No, I'm an athiest." "Oh, OK. See you at dinner, then." Nobody's upset.

Upon discovering that someone has suffered bad grades or misfortune, it's appropriate to say it's a shame, or that you're sorry. You are always correct in saying "I'll keep you in my thoughts."

That communicates the right sentiment, i.e., it gets the point across that you're concerned. Avoid saying you'll pray for someone unless you're already sure they don't have a problem with being prayed for.

That doesn't mean you can't pray for them on the sly . . . just don't upset them by telling them you're doing it.

Recruiting for the Almighty has traditionally been achieved more reliably by good example--a sort of stealth proselytizing--than by other means.

[Lorenzo]

Cranberry, I know you mean well, but praying for someone who doesn't want to be prayed for is a bit like the Mormon Church a few years ago posthumously baptizing Jews into their faith. Why do you think Jews around the world asked them to stop doing that?

I could not care less if a Christian prays for me or baptizes me after I'm dead. It won't affect me at all. I'll always be who I am.

mukade has it right, there's no need to tell someone you're praying for them. That's a power trip and reminds me of something I heard in my college days. I overheard religious zealot say, "I'm going to pray that you don't get any sleep until you stop doing that." The offending party calmly replied, "well then, you're bound to get less sleep than I."

[Cynth]

I am an atheist. Once when I was in the hospital a priest, having gotten my name confused with someone else's, came by. Once it became clear that I was not the Roman Catholic patient he was seeking, he started to leave and then asked if he could bless me anyway. He asked my permission. He was a very kind, respectful person and I said yes, thank you.

If I were talking about some serious trouble I was having and those to whom I was speaking said that they would pray for me, I would consider that equivalent to people saying they would keep me in their thoughts. I would consider that for them that was indeed the best way they could express their concern.

I have not had the experience of Christian friends saying this because they know of my beliefs and they, as good friends, make a response that will mean something to me in my time of trouble. For all I know they do pray for me, but if they do it is done privately, without announcing it. Nevertheless, I could accept an offer of prayer in those circumstances as being an expression of kind concern.

Let me try to explain the circumstances in which I do have a big problem with this.

If I have not said that I am having trouble and people inform me that they are going to pray for me, that would seem to imply that they feel I am in trouble. Why otherwise would they feel the need to pray for me? I can only assume they feel something is lacking in my life or that I need help. What would that thing be that is lacking? What is it I need help with? The answer would seem to be that I lack Christ. The answer would seem to be that I need help with my lack of belief in Christ. I find this to be judgemental and disrespectful. In those circumstances, if someone feels a need to pray for me, I believe it would be most polite to do so without informing me of it.

If people do not care for my behavior or my opinions, and their response is that they will pray for me rather than discussing the problem with me in terms that mean something to both of us i.e. words, this puts me in the situation of being unable to make any argument. What more can be said? To say one will pray for someone in these circumstances is a way to ensure one has the last word. It can be a means of expressing anger at or disdain for the opinions of others while appearing to be kind.

I fully understand that Christians truly believe that those who do not accept Christ as their personal saviour are lacking something important in their lives. I just as strongly believe another way and people of other faiths believe strongly in other things.

How are we to get along? I think we have all noticed that there are a number of difficulties between various religious groups. This is why the question is important to me. I would suggest that we don't interfere with other people's lives unasked or make comments either by word or deed about their beliefs.

Just as I would never dream of simply going about saying that people that pray have the wrong idea (even though I believe that very strongly), I would equally expect that people who believe otherwise equally strongly would not go about implying that I had the wrong approach by offering the prayers that I do not offer for myself.

To not interfer in someone's life unless asked to is a way of showing respect for that person. Although I do not believe in the power of prayer, I do feel that to pray for me without asking my permission or if I have asked that I not be prayed for is a gesture of interference in my life. It is a gesture that makes a comment about my beliefs. The prayer itself does not affect me of course, it is the gesture that is loaded with meaning. The lack of logic in objecting to something one does not believe in is an interesting point but not relevant to how I feel because it is the meaning behind the gesture that I find important.

I intend these words peacefully. I would hope that eveyone could get along. I believe that many of my posts would show that. But right here in this thread, I see that people like me are considered to be taking a reactionary stance, to be reacting emotionally rather than rationally, irrationally hating God and believing he doesn't exist at the same time, weird, pissed off, having defense mechanisms. I am just using these phrases as examples, not to indicate personal upsetness.

I know these comments aren't aimed at me personally. But can you (and I am speaking to no one in particular here) see it from my point of view? If I prefer to not have someone pray for me, that makes me, in the view of many apparently, these unpleasant things. How would that make you feel? Do you feel these things that have been said would be helpful in creating peace between people? For those that don't mind unsolicited prayers, I think that is just fine. It is none of my business. I truly have no concern about that. But how about me? What actually have I done that would merit being regarded in such a poor light? If something in my life has very negatively colored [my] view of God and religion, perhaps it is comments such as these that have done so.

Again, I know the comments are not made against me personally and I do not take them that way. I understand we are just having a discussion here. I am not angry, although clearly I have very strong feelings about this topic. I do appreciate the warning that was given at the top of the thread. I came to this thread with the intention of clarifying for myself just exactly why I am offended by unsolicited prayers and other unsolicited comments that would fall more or less into the same category. I have clarified that for myself, if not for others. Thank you for reading this if you managed to get through it.

[spittin_in_the_wind]

I'm going to come at this from an angle that may or may not be accurate for this situation, but I'll make the observation anyways...

I'm going to assume that this is a college/college age friend. At this age, a lot of people (myself included, way back when) tend to become very attached to a new-found ideological position or ethos, and can be really militant about it. If this person is an atheist, they might take it to its extreme and feel that their worldview has to be adhered to in its purest form; that is to say, they wouldn't want someone praying for them because that is just "not right" according to their ideology; similarly, you feel that it wouldn't be right to withold prayer in any case. With time, this person may not be so militant in his views--people are funny that way. At any rate, on a personal note, feel free to pray for him, but try not to touch any raw nerves by talking about it around him.

Robin

[Wombat]

(Warning: For those who wish to know beforehand and skip this thread, it deals with Christian philosophical/theological issues, which many people consider rather controversial, so please feel free to skip over it if that's not your kind of thing.)

I have a friend who is an atheist. He is currently going through a rough time. I told him I would pray for him. He said, "No. Don't pray for me."

I asked him why he didn't want me to pray for him and he said he didn't have a real reason, that he just did not want me to pray for him. He wouldn't go any further.

So yesterday I asked if he doesn't believe in God's existance, how he thinks praying can be a bad thing, since he believes it accomplishes nothing. He seemed kind of distraught so I just left it at that, and I most likely won't even mention it again, although I am still praying.

But it's got me to thinking in a more general sense: if a person does not believe in God's existance, why would he (or she) object to being prayed for? If he or she is right and God does not exist, then praying accomplishes nothing. If he or she is wrong, and God DOES exist, then prayer can accomplish a great deal and he or she would be wise not to object.

So, yeah. That's what I've been thinking about lately. Does that make sense, or am I only coming across clearly to myself?

Thoughts?

Your justification is Pascal's wager. (I haven't read the thread so my apologies if someone else has pointed this out.) For it to work, you have to assume that God doesn't mind insincere praying and I find that hard to swallow.

The reason an atheist would object is that it might feel like being spiritually imperialised and your persisting with questioning despite his discomfort is not helpful IMO. You can say something that is perfectly neutral like, 'I'll keep you in my thoughts.' That doesn't prevent you from praying if you think it might help but it doesn't help to tell him that that is what you are doing. My guess is that he thinks you are pestering him but doesn't want to be blunt because he appreciates your concern.

If this guy is going through a rough trot, that is the last time you should try to drag him into a conversation about the efficacy of prayer. Here's a guy who's doing it tough who has made a modest request of you. Why can't you just comply or at least pretend to? Why keep on about it? For people who are vulnerable, being forced to confront the big issues is not something a friend should impose on them.

[Wombat]

But in a more general sense (not just as it applies to him) it's made me wonder about why a person who believes prayer is useless would insist that nobody pray for him.

Maybe I'm repeating myself, but his insistance that no-one pray for him is not based on logic. It's a purely emotional reaction.

Sorry Em, but that just sounds patronising. Nothing Cran said about his friend warrants this construction.

Not wanting to talk about something does not mean that he would have nothing sensible to say if he did want to talk. It's a non sequiteur to suppose that it does. The most charitable reading of his behaviour is that he's being tactful. That is all.

[gonzo914]

. . . if a person does not believe in God's existance, why would he (or she) object to being prayed for?

My stance on matters spiritual is unashamedly agnostic, but I would prefer not to be prayed for because until I gave it up everybody I ever prayed for died.

[fancypiper]

According to the sermon on the mount, (I call that sermon the "Be Attitudes" ) "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"

I intepret this to mean people who haven't developed their "spritual mind" and only have their "logical mind" in use. I have read studies that showed that the "spritual mind" evolves, in quite a few folk, post age 50.

This comes when you evewntually realize that you aren't invulnurable and will surely die and you have absolutely no control over that unless you off yourself, not a good idea to me. You realize how helpless you are to help yourself and turn to developing your spiritual side. You have reached rock bottom and the only way to go is, you guessed it, up.

Being a Christian means admitting that you are a sinner, but you are attempting to lead a "Christ like life", but, nevertheless, you will sin again and must beg forgiveness (forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us as in the Lord's prayer).

If you follow the Great Commission (make sure the log is removed from your eye before you attempt to remove a speck from your brother's eye, a very difficult job, I have found) you are supposed to spread the gospel.

You are guaranteed that you surely will be tested after you accept Jesus as your personal savior (thank you Martin Luthor for the Diet of Worms).

I myself was never offended when I was atheist/agnostic by someone who wanted to pray for me, so it is hard for me to understand why someone would object. I just understood that they had their beliefs, I had mine, that's ok, different strokes for different folks was a saying when I was in HS/college. I would just bow my head and "pray" along with them.

I (darn, I need to hack some html and get it fixed up better) use my church's web site for my implmentation of the Great Comission. You can click if interested, I just try to provide information about my personal ministry, not click if not interested. I hope your friend will try not to offend you by their reaction, but get in the closet and pray for him anyhow. I see no way that will hurt.

BTW, I pray every day for Osama Bin Laden and his gang of cutthroats. They really need to be prayed for, the believers of the world don't need prayers nearly as much as the ones that do evil in the name of their religion(s).

Why was Jesus hated so much? He could see, with clear eyes, the sin in the world and he pointed it out. I am not qualified to do this as I consider myself at the infant stage and I am taking my first solid food. I have a long way to go before I can "remove the log" from my eye.

The guilt of the sinners made them very uncomfortable to have that pointed out to them, so they chose a theif to let go rather than the innocent Jesus, but he knew he had the duty to die for our sins and to extend the one-sided covenant that He made to Abraham to us gentiles.

[jbarter]

There are three reasons he might not want you to pray for him that I can think of:

1. He may be, for want of a better term, an evangelical atheist and believe that praying is wrong and should not be done.

2. He may want practical help and thinks prayer does not come into that category.

3. You may have touched upon deep scars from the past (not all religious experiences are positive).


BTW are you using the term 'atheist' to mean someone who doesn't believe in God or someone who believes in the non-existence of God?

[mukade]

There are three reasons he might not want you to pray for him that I can think of:

1. He may be, for want of a better term, an evangelical atheist and believe that praying is wrong and should not be done.

2. He may want practical help and thinks prayer does not come into that category.

3. You may have touched upon deep scars from the past (not all religious experiences are positive).

4. It may not be religious at all. When some people are focused on a problem they react negatively to anything unconnected to that problem.

Mukade

[emmline]

But in a more general sense (not just as it applies to him) it's made me wonder about why a person who believes prayer is useless would insist that nobody pray for him.

Maybe I'm repeating myself, but his insistance that no-one pray for him is not based on logic. It's a purely emotional reaction.

Sorry Em, but that just sounds patronising. Nothing Cran said about his friend warrants this construction.

Really? Huh. Well, I don't want to be that, but it is my best guess.
Equally likely is something like what Robin suggests:

At this age, a lot of people (myself included, way back when) tend to become very attached to a new-found ideological position or ethos, and can be really militant about it. If this person is an atheist, they might take it to its extreme and feel that their worldview has to be adhered to in its purest form...

But in essence, this militant adherence is kind of an emotional thing as well. I've been through that form of vegetarianism and healthfoodism, as has my now 18 year old daughter. I can easily imagine that thinking applied to atheism/religion.

[I.D.10-t]

Well cranberry I’ll rub my lucky rabbit’s foot for you.

I’m not what you would call a complete atheist (my beliefs are “different”), but I must ask how you would feel if a Wikken or a Muslim person said that they would cast a spell or pray for you? (one of witch has happened to me) Some people hold onto atheism as a belief, in such they should be respected as such.

What if you feel that by letting others untie a knot in a cord to help you in life is not only not helping them, but damning them because it is Christian (there are hard core Christians that would feel that way). Even if they didn’t tell people would they want them to do it?

Others above have said it better, I just wanted to put my spin on it.

Good luck, you mean well, you wouldn’t even be asking this question if you didn’t.

(I do not have a rabbit’s foot. Sorry I lied)

[EricWingler]

There are three reasons he might not want you to pray for him that I can think of:

1. He may be, for want of a better term, an evangelical atheist and believe that praying is wrong and should not be done.

2. He may want practical help and thinks prayer does not come into that category.

3. You may have touched upon deep scars from the past (not all religious experiences are positive).

Another reason might be that he is afraid of the consequences of an answered prayer. I know of a case where a man went to jail as the answer to a prayer made on his behalf. He wasn't angry though; it probably saved his life. A preacher had prayed that he would be able to leave his life of selling and using drugs. If he hadn't been arrested that night, the opposing gang in the area would have "closed his business."

[djm]

OR - if he knows you know that he is an athiest he may view your statement that you will pray for him as low blow against his atheism when he is down, i.e. prosletyzing to take advantage when he feels weak or insecure.

OR - his past experiences may have coloured his view so that he may see agressive prosletyzing as a form of attempted emotional blackmail, i.e. I prayed for you, you owe me.

Just stirring the pot.

djm

[Wombat]

Maybe I'm repeating myself, but his insistance that no-one pray for him is not based on logic. It's a purely emotional reaction.

Sorry Em, but that just sounds patronising. Nothing Cran said about his friend warrants this construction.

Really? Huh. Well, I don't want to be that, but it is my best guess.
Equally likely is something like what Robin suggests:

At this age, a lot of people (myself included, way back when) tend to become very attached to a new-found ideological position or ethos, and can be really militant about it. If this person is an atheist, they might take it to its extreme and feel that their worldview has to be adhered to in its purest form...

But in essence, this militant adherence is kind of an emotional thing as well. I've been through that form of vegetarianism and healthfoodism, as has my now 18 year old daughter. I can easily imagine that thinking applied to atheism/religion.

This is still patronising, only now it's equally likely he's irrational than most probable. Gee, some concession.

Let me put it to you—and sorry to appear to be singling you out since most others on this thread are running a version of the same line—that if somebody said they were going to give offerings to Zeus or the Sun God on my behalf I'd say that I'd rather they didn't. Never mind that they don't offer to sacrifice a virgin, I'd still rather they didn't. Wouldn't you? In what way is this even faintly irrational? Now the atheist no more believes in the Christian God than in Zeus or in the Sun god. Absolutely nothing Cran said led me (or you) to suppose that he came by any of these beliefs by irrational means. Charity requires you to suppose that his reasons were completely rational, absent a reason to think otherwise that wasn't supplied.

Atheism isn't a cognitive defect that needs to be explained away as due to immaturity or something like that.