An American Birthright

[izzarina]

Someone better think of something else quick because capitalism isn't working all that well.

I absolutely, 100% I am anything but a Capitalist (which is why most people assume I am a Communist or a socialist, despite the fact that where I lie economically is far different than either of those)

And for what it's worth, Doug, I do agree with the problems that your friend outlined. I'm just not sure I agree with his methods of solution. But as Jack said. something does need to be done.

[missy]

Cran - sorry to single you out - but - you are from Appalachia. Surely you know the horrors that the government's "War on Poverty" has perpetuated in the area??

Yes, people in Appalachia, for the most part, were poor. But they survived. If they needed something, a church or neighbors would help - often the neighbors would barter for goods or service, so that the help wasn't looked at as strictly charity.
Then, during the Johnson administration, the government came in and said "People, you are poor, you are ignorant, and we are going to take care of you". The government "took away" the self esteem and self respect that many of these people had. In a lot of these areas, there was no idustry, so kids would move away to cities such as Cincinnati, Columbus and Detroit to work and send money home. Now, they didn't have to. But they also had nothing else to do.
The level of education completed in the Appalachian areas is actually lower now then it was in 1960 (I don't have a link, but read this in several articles and books, and know so from personal experience). My husband's dad, who grew up in the rural area outside of Parkersburg WV, has a higher level of education then my dad did, who grew up in the same timeframe in the city of Cincinnati.
I've also seen the perpetuation of the welfare state in the inner city - working now on 3rd and 4th generation that has had basic "needs" met by the government and see no need to better themselves. Heck - you could basically argue that the people that didn't leave New Orleans before the hurricane did so because they were waiting for the government to do something to help them, vs. they going to where the buses were leaving from and helping themselves.

[Wombat]

It was "The Little Red Hen" (thanks, google).

There once was a little red hen who lived on a farm. The hen's friends were a little black dog, a big orange cat, and a little yellow goose. One day, the red hen found some grains of wheat. "I can make bread from this," thought the red hen.

The little red hen asked, "Who will help me plant the wheat?"

"Not I," said the little black dog.
"Not I," said the big orange cat.
"Not I," said the little yellow goose.

"Then I will do it myself," said the little red hen. And she planted the wheat without any help at all.

This isn't the version of 'The Little Red Hen' I learnt.

In my version the little red hen was headhunted and joined a multinational with interests in genetically modified primary produce and bread manufacturing amongst other things. She was offered an eight figure a year 'package' if she could increase productivity.

Things weren't looking good initially. Even with the undeniable gains in productivity brought about by introducing cockroach genes into the wheat, it was clear that far too much money was being spent each year on 'animal resources.' 'What can I do' thought the little red hen 'so long as the little black dog and the big orange cat continue to insist on collective bargaining.' I could refuse and bus in the small speckled duck and the big brown goat to break the resulting strike. But that could mean months of turmoil and I might miss out on my productivity bonuses. Fortunately, the little yellow goose accepted an individually negotiated contract and the little black dog and the big orange cat had no choice but to do likewise.

Cat, dog and goose laboured away, somewhat resentful of their reduced packages but convinced by the little red hen's assurances that 'we all have to be flexible these days or the company will take operations off shore and give all the work to the the little black armadillo and the medium sized pink porcupine.' But, with her lavish expense account and fancy new continental chookmobile, it didn't seem to them that the little red hen was being especially flexible.

When the loaf of bread was finally baked by the tired animals they each asked for their small share. 'You must be joking' said the little red hen as she gobbled down the last of the loaf. 'Haven't you read the fine print?'

[lixnaw]

i just found this article http://www.isme.org/article/view/183/1/26Music
education starts nine months before birth and musicians brains are more developt.
so education really starts before birth, the earlier, the easier, the more important.
treat pregnant women well, and the jails won't be that full.
we should pay more attention to the quality of kindergarten and primery school aswell.
but why should this be just an American birthright? because of this board?
i believe 't has nothing to do with nationality.

[missy]

lixnaw - see dapple's thread.......

One of the things I think is CRITICAL to the well being of humanity is greater emphasis put on having every child ready to learn when they start kindergarten. This means placing a much heavier emphasis on pre-school or Head Start - quality pre-school and headstart. This may not be such a need in the middle to upper class home where books are prevalent and parents "work" with their kids. But, especially in homes where books are missing and parents are barely able to live - getting the tools to learning at an early age is very important.
And, no, it's not an American thing - it needs to be everywhere.

[Jack]

Cran - sorry to single you out - but - you are from Appalachia. Surely you know the horrors that the government's "War on Poverty" has perpetuated in the area??

Yes, people in Appalachia, for the most part, were poor. But they survived. If they needed something, a church or neighbors would help - often the neighbors would barter for goods or service, so that the help wasn't looked at as strictly charity.
Then, during the Johnson administration, the government came in and said "People, you are poor, you are ignorant, and we are going to take care of you". The government "took away" the self esteem and self respect that many of these people had. In a lot of these areas, there was no idustry, so kids would move away to cities such as Cincinnati, Columbus and Detroit to work and send money home. Now, they didn't have to. But they also had nothing else to do.
The level of education completed in the Appalachian areas is actually lower now then it was in 1960 (I don't have a link, but read this in several articles and books, and know so from personal experience). My husband's dad, who grew up in the rural area outside of Parkersburg WV, has a higher level of education then my dad did, who grew up in the same timeframe in the city of Cincinnati.
I've also seen the perpetuation of the welfare state in the inner city - working now on 3rd and 4th generation that has had basic "needs" met by the government and see no need to better themselves. Heck - you could basically argue that the people that didn't leave New Orleans before the hurricane did so because they were waiting for the government to do something to help them, vs. they going to where the buses were leaving from and helping themselves.

Of course. But what I invision is not what has happened. If I were part of a Christian Socialist government, things would be a lot different This is all pretty much in theory of course, because there isn't going to be that kind of change in the reasonable future.

[Nanohedron]

Spare me the argument of entitlement, America roll up your sleeves and find solutions to our massive problems.

This first and foremost, I say. Then let monetary resources be saved and utilised where most needed at home when bootstraps aren't cutting it.

[TomB]

Cran - sorry to single you out - but - you are from Appalachia. Surely you know the horrors that the government's "War on Poverty" has perpetuated in the area??

Yes, people in Appalachia, for the most part, were poor. But they survived. If they needed something, a church or neighbors would help - often the neighbors would barter for goods or service, so that the help wasn't looked at as strictly charity.
Then, during the Johnson administration, the government came in and said "People, you are poor, you are ignorant, and we are going to take care of you". The government "took away" the self esteem and self respect that many of these people had. In a lot of these areas, there was no idustry, so kids would move away to cities such as Cincinnati, Columbus and Detroit to work and send money home. Now, they didn't have to. But they also had nothing else to do.
The level of education completed in the Appalachian areas is actually lower now then it was in 1960 (I don't have a link, but read this in several articles and books, and know so from personal experience). My husband's dad, who grew up in the rural area outside of Parkersburg WV, has a higher level of education then my dad did, who grew up in the same timeframe in the city of Cincinnati.
I've also seen the perpetuation of the welfare state in the inner city - working now on 3rd and 4th generation that has had basic "needs" met by the government and see no need to better themselves. Heck - you could basically argue that the people that didn't leave New Orleans before the hurricane did so because they were waiting for the government to do something to help them, vs. they going to where the buses were leaving from and helping themselves.

While I do not agree with Cran's view, I disagree saying that people's needs are met by welfare, so they have no incentive to go out and work. People's needs are not met by welfare. Welfare is an assistance given out by the government. You can't raise a family only on welfare. Certainly not a healthy family and not one that ever has a hope of improving itself.

Toj

[TomB]

Cran - sorry to single you out - but - you are from Appalachia. Surely you know the horrors that the government's "War on Poverty" has perpetuated in the area??

Yes, people in Appalachia, for the most part, were poor. But they survived. If they needed something, a church or neighbors would help - often the neighbors would barter for goods or service, so that the help wasn't looked at as strictly charity.
Then, during the Johnson administration, the government came in and said "People, you are poor, you are ignorant, and we are going to take care of you". The government "took away" the self esteem and self respect that many of these people had. In a lot of these areas, there was no idustry, so kids would move away to cities such as Cincinnati, Columbus and Detroit to work and send money home. Now, they didn't have to. But they also had nothing else to do.
The level of education completed in the Appalachian areas is actually lower now then it was in 1960 (I don't have a link, but read this in several articles and books, and know so from personal experience). My husband's dad, who grew up in the rural area outside of Parkersburg WV, has a higher level of education then my dad did, who grew up in the same timeframe in the city of Cincinnati.
I've also seen the perpetuation of the welfare state in the inner city - working now on 3rd and 4th generation that has had basic "needs" met by the government and see no need to better themselves. Heck - you could basically argue that the people that didn't leave New Orleans before the hurricane did so because they were waiting for the government to do something to help them, vs. they going to where the buses were leaving from and helping themselves.

Oh, and to your last sentence, all of those rfolks that went to the Superdome and Convetion Center, did so because that is where they were told to go by the powers that be. Then, they were neglected for days. You can't blame them for listening to its governments directions in times of national crisis, that's what they are taught to do.

Tom

[perrins57]

For myself, I might say that I am a democratic communitarian socialist.

Sounds a bit like an indigenous foreigner to me

[missy]

Tom - I didn't say people's needs are met by Welfare, I stated that people's incentive to take care of their own needs is destroyed by Welfare. Totally different take. Temporary welfare is one thing, and totally necessary. Permanent welfare is a horrible waste of humanity.

As to going to the Superdome - yes, they were told to do that AFTER it became too late to leave the city. And, as you can see, many did not do that. No one was told to go to the Convention Center - people started going there when they could not get to the Superdome because of the flooding. The powers that be didn't even know people were at the Convention Center until Wednesday.

[jGilder]

No one was told to go to the Convention Center - people started going there when they could not get to the Superdome because of the flooding. The powers that be didn't even know people were at the Convention Center until Wednesday.

The refugees were told to go to the convention center, it was the head of FEMA that knew nothing about them.

[Cynth]

missy, we have a little different take on what happened during the evacuation if I understood you correctly. And I have a small difference with jGilder as well. I'm not addressing the welfare question at all here.

you could basically argue that the people that didn't leave New Orleans before the hurricane did so because they were waiting for the government to do something to help them, vs. they going to where the buses were leaving from and helping themselves.

As to going to the Superdome - yes, they were told to do that AFTER it became too late to leave the city. And, as you can see, many did not do that. No one was told to go to the Convention Center - people started going there when they could not get to the Superdome because of the flooding.

The refugees were told to go to the convention center, it was the head of FEMA that knew nothing about them.

My observation was, and I certainly may have missed something, was that on Sunday morning the Mandatory Evacuation was announced. At that same time the Superdome was designated as the Refuge of Last Resort (shelter only). People were to leave the city via private transportation. They were asked to check on neighbors to make sure everyone had a ride. I don't recall that any bus transportation of any kind was available at that time nor were there any shelters (supplying shelter, water, and food) outside the at-risk parishes. Those people who had no private transportation or means to pay for lodging and meals had no choice but to go to the Superdome. I believe all day Sunday people were going there while those with private transportation and adequate money were driving out of the city.

In other words, I don't believe any busses were leaving New Orleans before the hurricane hit.

I believe no one knows who told people to go to the Convention Center. If we don't know exactly who it was then the possibility remains that a rumor started that they should go there. Certainly, from what I have heard, the people thought they had been told to go there---so this is probably a moot point. I did not know they went there because they could not get to the Superdome because of flood water.

I have heard a number of reasons given by people on TV about why they stayed in their homes rather than go to the Superdome----they wanted to protect their property from looting, they could not leave their pets, they saw (apparently on TV) the huge number of people at the Superdome and decided to ride the storm out at home. It seems that a huge number did not go and if anyone can give me a citation for other reasons I would be very interested.

I am just stating what I think are facts here. Any corrections with citations would be appreciated.

[jGilder]

My observation was, and I certainly may have missed something, was that on Sunday morning the Mandatory Evacuation was announced. At that same time the Superdome was designated as the Refuge of Last Resort (shelter only).

Well obviously someone told them because over 2000 people showed up. The part I'm having a hard time getting my head around is how they could have been there 4 days before FEMA even became aware of them.

[fancypiper]

This isn't the version of 'The Little Red Hen' I learnt.

That must be the Aussie version!

What do you expect when you are upside-down and backwards?