Polluting/spamming the forums

[Denny]

All righty!

Hows about droppin' the Pub idea. Change it to an exclusive Club.
Invitation needed for membership.

All ya gotta do is figure out who to invite.

[MurphyStout]

This was in a PM between me and izzarina and it is a psuedo appology and my rationale for posting.... with her permission.

YOu know, I didn't spend much time on my post and that was my problem. I wrote that in 2 minutes with basically what was on my mind with too many considerations. In retrospect I should have been less rude and more considerate BUT even if I did start off nicely it would have gotten ugly sooner or later so I might as well be the boogeyman.

I (and many others) don't like sifting thru some much politics and fluff finding good stuff (on all forums) so I posted asking some people to maybe moderate themselves a bit. I did it very rudely (in this medium, in person or via talking I'm very nice and funny) but as I stated above it would have gotten ugly anyways.

Jack

You know, I think you're right....I think things would have gotten ugly no matter how you said it. No one likes to be told that their postings are "fluff" But I don't like to wade through it all that much either, despite my contributions. Because of that I'm really glad you said what you did. And honestly, you could argue that the way you said it made more people think about their manner of posting, and try to refine that to a certain extent. Sometimes these things have to come as a slap in the face so to speak before anyone listens.
So for what it's worth, I did understand your original intent, and I do agree with you for the most part. So thanks again for posting...if anything you can be assured that the meaning in what you said wasn't totally lost on everyone

[Denny]

Jack ya struck the motherload of nerves!

Sucker spread faster than...

[Dale]

Having kind of yelled at Brian (sorry, Brian) I think about it all and I do know what he and M-Stout an others are talking about and I understand some of the nostalgia about the early days of the board. I also remember that there were people who predicted that as the board grew, it's focus would get fuzzy, and they cited examples of other boards where this has happened. I continue to believe the Pub is the best thing we can do and I'm not sure I buy the idea that the presence of the pub is responsible for the decline in posts on the whistle forum.

Lately I've been thinking about my own history with all of this and I think the evolution of the board kind of parallels my own history with the whistle. I got interested in the whistle about 10 years ago, started C&F and then watched and participated in an explosion of shared info on whistles and the proliferation of new whistles on the market, much of which, I believe, wouldn't have happened without C&F to serve as the informational exchange. Not patting myself on the back here, I think it was mostly a matter of timing. And during most of this 10 year period, I've been fascinated by the instrument. But, you know, after awhile, a guy develops other interests, which I certainly have. I still collect whistles, still play some, but I'm not nearly as Whoa afflicted as I've been for most of these years. Careful observers can see it: My contributions to the board are, by and large, of the kind that is annoying Brian and others. I started the politics thread, I post goofy OT things right in there with the best (worst) of them. I don't update the website with any kind of regularity anymore and newsletters are decreasing in frequency. Not flagellating myself on this either: My humorous self-aggrandizing aside, it's not my responsibility to take on the permanent job being the undisputed king of whistle journalism. This is a bit of chicken and egg--but I'm not sure how much is about all my HEAT about whistles cooling down a bit, or maybe there's just not as much whistle NEWS anymore. You know? Maybe the big growth period is over and the market for whistles and whistle info has kinda stablized. At one time, I couldn't imagine ever having more than 300 or 500 subscribers to this board or to the newsletter and the newsletter, such as it is, has finally stablized at about 3000 readers. Ok. All is coolness with that.

And so it goes. I sure don't have regrets. Being involved in all of this has been one of the neatest things in my life. Even putting aside the contents of the C&F Whistle Vaults, I've been so very rewarded by it all. This thing has allowed people to become friends, meet up, develop all kinds of lovely friendships...and that's been true of me, too.

[Lambchop]

As has been pointed out, the volume of traffic has slowed on the other boards after the creation of this "pub".

Yes, it has. Because the off-topic posts went elsewhere. That was the Big Plan, after all.

Uh...forrest for the trees. This wasn't a problem until recently. It's the sheer volume of OT posts - one so large they required their own forum that has me baffled.

You're baffled because people are exhibiting a normal impetus to discuss a variety of topics???

Whatever happens, I'll continue to watch my place fall in the total post ranks no doubt.

That looks like it might be the crux of your problem. You're upset because you aren't as much a mover and shaker as you used to be. You wanted to talk about A, B, and C, but things have changed and there isn't much room to talk about A, B, and C, because the new guys are all talking about X, Y, and Z.

If you want to talk about A, B, and C, then how about you start some threads about them? Hmmm? Be proactive. If you want to talk about it, then talk about it.

There is absolutely NO problem with my place in the posting heierarchy - in all actuallity I wish I was much lower! Don't know what you're on about with the "mover and shaker" comment. There are plenty of us who contribute to all sorts of threads here - have done for years. We've been talking about A,B & C as you put it on a board created to talk about A, B & C! NOT a board created to talk about X,Y & Z. there are countless other forums on this wide internet for those discussions. - There's only one C&F.

No, there is a forum on C&F to discuss X, Y, and Z. It's the Pub.

If you don't like what you see in the Pub, you need to not go there.

If you want more on-topic posts in the whistle forum, or whatever it is that you play, then you need to go there and post them.

And you need to accept that it's ok for the rest of us to be in the Pub discussing X, Y, and Z. Regardless of what you happen to think about it.

I apologize if this is blunt, but I'm not a psychologist.

If someone's talking during a lecture, or concert or what have you, the others who came for the purpose of learning or listening will be understandably upset the longer they do it - particularly if they are told by the offender that "if they don't like it - then just leave the class/concert!"

Well, yes, but this isn't a concert and we're not talking IN THE CONCERT. We're not disrupting the concert at all. We're doing all this talking in the Pub next door.

It's ok to do that. If you don't think so, then something may be wrong with your expectations and perceptions.

If you want to schedule more stuff in the concert hall, then do so. Start posting in the other forums. We'll stop by to listen, I'm sure.

[Brian Lee]

:roll: You make my point so clear.

[Turtle]

Newcomer point of view. Take it for what its worth. You have instrument
and music specific forums which are quite informative and have been
very helpfull to me. These forums stay on topic without having to sift through a lot of inane babble, which leads me to the Pub forum. I for one
happen to appreciate inane babble now and then. I also have more than
one dimension and several interests outside the realm of music. There
are some very intelligent individuals who post on both sides, on a wide
range of subjects. With so many different individuals and views, it would
be very foolish of me to assume that I would have an interest in every
thread posted, or even the majority of them. This doesn't make posts
that I am non interested in any less worthwhile, it just makes them
different. It seems to me that all the forums are fullfilling their intended
purposes, and I applaud the creators and the participants of this fine
endeavor.

Turtle

[kkrell]

I don't think the play at all fairly," Alice began, in a rather complaining tone, "and they all quarrel so dreadfully one can't hear oneself speak -- and they don't seem to have any rules in particular: at least if there are, nobody attends to them -- and you've no idea how confusing it all the things being alive...."

Kevin Krell

[Walden]

Personally, I have no problem with folks posting off topic or on topic, political, religious, or otherwise. It is the hostile threads that I find tiring. Threads started because of evil this person or that person. Threads about evil presidents or evil states. Threads about evil Muslims or evil Christians. I mean, fine, express yourself, but there is an awful lot of hostility being vented. Maybe get some counseling... something. I just can't see that posting thread after thread after thread of how awful those who don't agree with our own philosophy are, will do anything but make matters worse.

[Wombat]

Just a few stray comments on this topic.

1. Dales's point is pretty much the clincher. If the complaints are 100% right, what on earth can he do about it? (I'll have a few suggestions later about what the grumps can do about it which they might not like.)

2. I've been here about 3 years and lot of people have come and gone. Now, concerning most of them, I have absolutely no idea how good they were on their instruments.

3. Offhand, I can think of about a dozen people who don't post here much now who had a lot to contribute, who were very knowledgable about music and other things. Loren, Herbivore12, Wendy Morrison and Darwin come to mind immediately but there are quite a few others, some of whom (but not all) were mentioned earlier. I can also think of lots of people who were good company and sensible and who I miss. I don't think they outnumber the new people whose company I enjoy.

4. There is a very imperfect correlation between being a really good player and having lots of good things to say about music. I've been playing for decades and know many musicians with world reputations. Some of them are so inarticulate they could barely explain how to tune their instrument. Many fairly ordinary players are full of insights and make great teachers. This goes for all fields, not just music.

5. I read widely about music and about many styles and have done most of my life—ethnomusicalogy, teaching manuals, criticism biography and so on ... When I'm reading, I almost never find myself asking how well the writer plays or even whether he or she does play. For example I have no idea whether my favourite jazz critics play well or badly or even if they play at all. Why would that matter? (Occasionally, of course, I find critics who talk technicalities who are clearly out of their depth, but that is another matter.)

6. Whenever I post a question on the ITM board I get the answer quite quickly and often a good discussion as well. The same goes most of the time for non-ITM questions about music in the pub. For exampole, a couple of years ago I posted a notice of an obscure ITM release of music from the Blasket islands. It didn't generate a single comment at the time. Recently I had a good reason to revive that thread. What ensued was not just a sensible discussion; we even got first hand reports of the habits of Blasket islanders. So much for the charge of general decline.

7. If you want to start a discussion that cuts through the spam, just phrase your initial post in a way that precludes people who simply read from their scripts. Recently, I wanted to find out whether political conservatives had a rational justifcation for endorsing economic theories that treat capital differently from 'human resources.' I got an interesting discussion with no political spam at all because the question I asked had nothing to do with group bonding or flying the flag.

8. This brings me to my proposal. If you feel grumpy and nostalgic for the good old days, why not start new threads that force people to provide knowedgable and focused answers or stay out? Let's go further. Let the complainers ask themselves how much they teach others. I don't mean how often they repeat platitudes like 'practice more' and 'learn folk musics by ear'—I've known that stuff since I was in my teens and I only had to be told once. What I mean is this: if you want better threads start off by floating original observations or asking questions you thought up yourself.

9. One final comment. When some of the old timers whose loss is supposed to diminish us do drop in to say hello, it's hilarious how thin their comments often are. 'Hi X. Long time no see. How's the keyed Olwell, you lucky basmati. Remember that night in Boston when you blah blah blah ...' A lot for newcomers to learn in that stuff. Don't get me wrong, I personally think that the whistle board has gone off a bit, but, if I'm right, I think this reflects a loss of interest in whistles. For how many of us is whistle the main instrument?

[Tyghress]

I don't think this thread was started because of any problem with the Whistle, ITM, Flute or Pipes board. I thought it was an issue with the Pub itself.

Approaching it from that direction, let's say someone starts a thread to discuss a fictional book that's hit the best seller list -- let's say its about an ice fisher who gets kidnapped. Two more people mention that they've read the book. Someone else posts a message that ice fisher's are evil. Four more people pipe in with puns and inside jokes about kidnapping. Someone posts a message violently disagreeing with the author of the book's politics. An ice fisher joins in to complain about being called evil. The witty punsters are still trading posts. Another person tries to steer the discussion back to the book, but now its a lost cause.

Dale, I don't think there is a thing you can do about it, other than let threads like this run their course. Those of us who get frustrated with it stop reading, or posting, or visiting, but quite honestly, who cares? It doesn't make a difference in the long run. Not to the people who stay, not to the people who leave, not to the boards themselves. You're right. Its moot.

Edit:
Not to play devil's advocate or anything, but I just did an hour+ poking around....there isn't as much of this behavior as I thought there was. I think I'm just supersensitive to when it happens. Like the mosquito buzzing around your head...it doesn't have to be constant, but it sure is an annoyance when it happens.

I did happen to come across a thread that illustrates my point exactly, though. A question was posted...there were thirteen posts responding... three of those posts -- THREE -- were on topic. TEN were witticisms of one form or another. This is the problem that sticks in my mind.

[susnfx]

One tiny point: I don't know that those who have left the board in the past have necessarily left because they're disgruntled with the posts going helter-skelter (unless they post an "I'm Outta Here" tirade, which occasionally happens). I think some fade out because they get a little bored with the repititious nature of questions/discussions (those discussions aren't necessarily bad--the search option isn't great for general questions). Many times, though, I think people just move on in their lives and this board becomes less important or useful to them in whatever they're doing at the time.

Susan

[Wombat]

I don't think this thread was started because of any problem with the Whistle, ITM, Flute or Pipes board. I thought it was an issue with the Pub itself.

Jack said he doesn't ask certain questions because there aren't enough knowledgable people left to make it worth his while. I thought he was talking about music.

[Cynth]

I think the original post was refering to The Pub, but the word "forums" was used and references to instruments and practicing were made. From that point on I think both the individual music forums and the Pub were being discussed---not that people necessarily knew what was being refered to at any given point. Just my take on it.

I did assume, like Wombat, that the part about there not being enough advanced people to have discussions with and questions answered was refering specifically to music and thus not to the Pub but to the music forums.

[Denny]

I did assume, like Wombat, that the part about there not being enough advanced people to have discussions with and questions answered was refering specifically to music and thus not to the Pub but to the music forums.

...would be a downside to becoming an advanced person! It becomes harder to find people signifgantly more advanced to mentor you.

Doesn't mean that the average playing ability of the participants on a particular forum has moved either way.