Which one should I BUY? Sam Murray v Martin Doyle D flutes!
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Cathy Wilde
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Wormdiet
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Yes, in an outdoor, day-into-evening session in a very humid climate my tuning has varied by at least 1/4". Again, it isnt the flute that necessarily changes, it's fiddles and pipes and so forth. again, that's just my experience.Jayhawk wrote: How many of us actually ever have to shift their slide more than +/- 2 mm?
Eric
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Doing it backwards since 2005.
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Jayhawk
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David - those are good points. I tend to prefer the sound of a flute without a slide, but you're right about the clearer tone of a flute with a slide being easier to hear in a robust session.
Personally, I've not played with anyone so far out of tune it's been a problem (being slideless), but I guess I tend to play pretty much in tune after talking with both my flutes' makers in the past year (I always thought I was sharp, but where I set the headjoint - both on lined and unlined heads - was where both makers said they tuned them to). Also, everyone I play with tends to tote around an electronic tuner (except me)...I guess that's life in the states these days.
I do agree the gap created by a headjoint being pulled out creates a slight flattening of the upper notes (most noticeably the second octave B, C# and less so A), but it's easily something you just lip up with practice but would be much more of an issue if you played sharp...and if you play flat it can be a real issue with a slideless flute. Terry McGee has a good page explaining all this - along with his new improved slideless design which minimizes the gap.
I know you're not a fan of delrin, but Des Seery also makes wooden flutes and also uses the partial slide for all his flutes. I think it's what makes his flutes sound woodier to me than the fully lined M&Es...but that's purely my opinion.
Eric
Personally, I've not played with anyone so far out of tune it's been a problem (being slideless), but I guess I tend to play pretty much in tune after talking with both my flutes' makers in the past year (I always thought I was sharp, but where I set the headjoint - both on lined and unlined heads - was where both makers said they tuned them to). Also, everyone I play with tends to tote around an electronic tuner (except me)...I guess that's life in the states these days.
I do agree the gap created by a headjoint being pulled out creates a slight flattening of the upper notes (most noticeably the second octave B, C# and less so A), but it's easily something you just lip up with practice but would be much more of an issue if you played sharp...and if you play flat it can be a real issue with a slideless flute. Terry McGee has a good page explaining all this - along with his new improved slideless design which minimizes the gap.
I know you're not a fan of delrin, but Des Seery also makes wooden flutes and also uses the partial slide for all his flutes. I think it's what makes his flutes sound woodier to me than the fully lined M&Es...but that's purely my opinion.
Eric
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Jayhawk
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Wormdiet - I didn't have a ruler out when I used 2 mm, 1/4" is 5 mm which is still well within the tuning range of a slideless flute (at least the two that I've owned). My caveat above about flat or sharp players would naturally make a difference.
Still, I maintain baroque flute players, heck all flute players for several centuries were able to get by playing with other instruments without a slide.
Is life with a slide easier? Probably, but the tone of an all wood flute is something some folks, myself include, love. Which brings it back again to what each of us likes.
Eric
Still, I maintain baroque flute players, heck all flute players for several centuries were able to get by playing with other instruments without a slide.
Is life with a slide easier? Probably, but the tone of an all wood flute is something some folks, myself include, love. Which brings it back again to what each of us likes.
Eric
Hi, i don't think you could go wrong with either maker so no matter what you decide you'll be happy and content! I have played a couple of Doyle's and a good lot of Murray's. i would say go for the Murray but if you want to go for the Doyle then you're right to get the tuning slide. I have just ordered a keyed flute from Sam so I put my money where my mouth is! 
David
David
I have nothing against non-slide flutes - they sound nice. Just talking about my own expeiences.Something to be said for slides, something to
be said for slideless, which is why it's
necessary to have BOTH!
But if I had just one and I was playing with
other people, it would have a slide.
In my experience, it definitely
facilitates tuning. And some of the time
other instruments start changing
with temperature or whatever.
The slide's more functional, IMO.
Also IMO, a lined headjoint projects better
and is heard better in ensembles,
but I've never played an instrument
with a partial slide and can't comment.
be said for slideless, which is why it's
necessary to have BOTH!
But if I had just one and I was playing with
other people, it would have a slide.
In my experience, it definitely
facilitates tuning. And some of the time
other instruments start changing
with temperature or whatever.
The slide's more functional, IMO.
Also IMO, a lined headjoint projects better
and is heard better in ensembles,
but I've never played an instrument
with a partial slide and can't comment.
Just my own recent experience, but my all-wood/slideless Olwell boxwood flute projects much louder (for me) in a session than my other flute (with lining). I expected the opposite, but I could hear myself, and others said they could hear the unlined Olwell more than the other. Cathy can attest to that. Weird?
Jeanie
Jeanie
Last edited by Hoovorff on Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cathy Wilde
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It's true. Jeanie's unlined Olwell "booms" much more. BUT, that said ... it's an Olwell, and they're just about the most generous, resonant wooden flutes on the planet (except for maybe McGees ).
I'm going to float a theory here .... I don't know exactly how this works, but it seems like Patrick Olwell has built a natural tone into his flutes that squarely occupies a space in the spectrum not taken up by any other instrument -- i.e., maybe Olwells are not actually so loud, per se; it's just that they're not blurring into the fiddles and other things like other flutes do. As such, every Olwell I've heard or played has an inherent authority -- a regal sort of separateness -- that distinguishes it from any other make I've heard or played in my so-so experience (although McGees seem to hang about in the same neighborhood).
About linings. I'm really not seeing a correlation. I have a fully lined Ormiston that, left to its own devices, is a fairly polite flute. I also have a fully lined DeKeyser Pratten that, while more carrying than the Ormiston, I wouldn't call a cannon.
But then there are the little unlined Murrays -- which, while not as loud as a McGee or Hamilton, have a different tone that lets them shoot through a moderate racket like little firecrackers.
(Hamiltons have a unique sound, too, I think)
And then of course, is the McGee, which is a veritable tank.
So after all these flutes and all this pondering, I'm definitely arriving at it being a tonal thing. Hence my struggle to find the sound that PROJECTS the best for a certain flute.
Unfortunately, I've also found that when I can't hear myself in a crowded session, it's hard to figure out what exactly that sound would be!
(which means, daggone it, I STILL play too hard all too often -- and forget any hope of tone when you do that! ) :roll:
Oh, the fun never ends!
). I'm going to float a theory here .... I don't know exactly how this works, but it seems like Patrick Olwell has built a natural tone into his flutes that squarely occupies a space in the spectrum not taken up by any other instrument -- i.e., maybe Olwells are not actually so loud, per se; it's just that they're not blurring into the fiddles and other things like other flutes do. As such, every Olwell I've heard or played has an inherent authority -- a regal sort of separateness -- that distinguishes it from any other make I've heard or played in my so-so experience (although McGees seem to hang about in the same neighborhood).
About linings. I'm really not seeing a correlation. I have a fully lined Ormiston that, left to its own devices, is a fairly polite flute. I also have a fully lined DeKeyser Pratten that, while more carrying than the Ormiston, I wouldn't call a cannon.
But then there are the little unlined Murrays -- which, while not as loud as a McGee or Hamilton, have a different tone that lets them shoot through a moderate racket like little firecrackers.
(Hamiltons have a unique sound, too, I think)
And then of course, is the McGee, which is a veritable tank.
So after all these flutes and all this pondering, I'm definitely arriving at it being a tonal thing. Hence my struggle to find the sound that PROJECTS the best for a certain flute.
Unfortunately, I've also found that when I can't hear myself in a crowded session, it's hard to figure out what exactly that sound would be!
(which means, daggone it, I STILL play too hard all too often -- and forget any hope of tone when you do that! ) :roll:
Oh, the fun never ends!
Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.
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chas
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Agreed on all counts. I played my boxwood and rosewood Olwells and my boxwood Bleazey for my wife. She said there was a certain character shared by the Olwell and Bleazey, but the Olwells have some assertive sound common to them both. The Hammy also has some je-ne-sias-quoix that sets it apart from other flutes, I'd call it a presence.Cathy Wilde wrote: I'm going to float a theory here .... I don't know exactly how this works, but it seems like Patrick Olwell has built a natural tone into his flutes that squarely occupies a space in the spectrum not taken up by any other instrument -- i.e., maybe Olwells are not actually so loud, per se; it's just that they're not blurring into the fiddles and other things like other flutes do.
(Hamiltons have a unique sound, too, I think)
Oh, the fun never ends!
Yeah, it's fun. Every time I think I'll never get another flute, I do. I just found out that my "last" flute (ordered some time ago, same time as the Olwell boxwood) will be begun in December. I've gotten at least three second-hand since then.
Charlie
Whorfin Woods
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Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
I play with a hammered dulcimer group sometimes.
I have an unlined Olwell boxwood Nicholson and
it doesn't cut through quite.
The lined Copley does and so do my other lined
flutes--the Olwell Pratten is, well, a beast.
The Olwell boxwood also is a problem
in other ensemble venues because it's
in tune with the tenon in and so I can't
tune sharp. I turn out the headjoint
and blow sharp, etc. I believe it's supposed
to be in tune with the tenon out very
slightly, but I find I need it all the
way in.
I've had similar problems with a Sweet G
flute. It's in tune with the tenon in, so
I can't tune sharp, and it's flat when
it's cold. This creates problems with
other instruments, sometimes.
The nice thing about the slide is that the
flute is in tune with the slide a significant
distance out, so there's plenty of
room to tune sharp.
This may very well be how these flutes
sound in my hands, of course.
I have an unlined Olwell boxwood Nicholson and
it doesn't cut through quite.
The lined Copley does and so do my other lined
flutes--the Olwell Pratten is, well, a beast.
The Olwell boxwood also is a problem
in other ensemble venues because it's
in tune with the tenon in and so I can't
tune sharp. I turn out the headjoint
and blow sharp, etc. I believe it's supposed
to be in tune with the tenon out very
slightly, but I find I need it all the
way in.
I've had similar problems with a Sweet G
flute. It's in tune with the tenon in, so
I can't tune sharp, and it's flat when
it's cold. This creates problems with
other instruments, sometimes.
The nice thing about the slide is that the
flute is in tune with the slide a significant
distance out, so there's plenty of
room to tune sharp.
This may very well be how these flutes
sound in my hands, of course.
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Flauta dolce
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Doyle's E hole. C natural and F sharp keys.
A pal of mine heats his Doyle over the radiator a bit
to get it in tune .
I think that a Martin Doyle keyless
D Flute may do the trick for me due to the short
waiting list. Though I'm still not sure...not a good thing, heh?
However, I am concerned that I find
the E hole is too large for me in Doyle's
as my fourth finger has difficulty in
covering it.
Murray said to me that I would have to wait
'til Christmas for a keyless flute.
I agree Murray's flute more comfortable as
they are slender. Murray's flute is made in
three parts whereas Doyle's flute are made
in two. Does this make any difference?
By the way, a session collegue of mine bought
a 6-keyed Hammy as his first flute ! He says he
bought it in case he gets good. I sometimes
wonder whether he was completely crazy or if he
was doing the right thing. I don't believe that
he's the best flautist, he' s on a steep learning
curve (albeit not a steep as mine at
the moment).
He doesn't use all the keys
yet.
Anyway, my point is: Is it worth my while buying
the C natural and F sharp keys ? I already know
quite number of tunes using these keys.
to get it in tune .
I think that a Martin Doyle keyless
D Flute may do the trick for me due to the short
waiting list. Though I'm still not sure...not a good thing, heh?
However, I am concerned that I find
the E hole is too large for me in Doyle's
as my fourth finger has difficulty in
covering it.
Murray said to me that I would have to wait
'til Christmas for a keyless flute.
I agree Murray's flute more comfortable as
they are slender. Murray's flute is made in
three parts whereas Doyle's flute are made
in two. Does this make any difference?
By the way, a session collegue of mine bought
a 6-keyed Hammy as his first flute ! He says he
bought it in case he gets good. I sometimes
wonder whether he was completely crazy or if he
was doing the right thing. I don't believe that
he's the best flautist, he' s on a steep learning
curve (albeit not a steep as mine at
the moment).
He doesn't use all the keysyet.
Anyway, my point is: Is it worth my while buying
the C natural and F sharp keys ? I already know
quite number of tunes using these keys.
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BMFW
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Well I am in the tuning-slide-as-a-must camp here. As I think David Levine pointed out, people blow at different pitches. A fellow fluter and I both played Hammy's for a while and if we ever swapped, the first thing we would have to do is adjust the slide to take account of our blowing. One may blow a fantastic tone, but blow a bit flat. This would seem to render a non tuning slide instrument virtually useless at a session. I believe there are too many variables involved in pitch to allow any maker to state that they make their instruments bang-on in pitch.springrobin wrote:Tuning slide schmooning slide!
Graham
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Jayhawk
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Graham - I talked with 5 or 6 makes at one point about their slideless flutes (as I said above slides are fine, but being metal they do increase the chance of cracking), and every maker I talked to tuned their slideless flutes to be in tune with the headjoint pulled back a couple of mm's or so. None reported making them in tune pushed all the way in. If it is in tune a bit out, you can still tune sharper or flater using the tennon.
Individual blowing styles (flat vs. sharp) is the biggest issue, so slideless isn't for everyone (even though it once was for everyone, and I suspect people learned to blow sharper or flatter as needed).
Flauta dolce - I love keys. If you think you might want them, I'm pretty sure both makers block mount keys so you'd need to decide in advance...also it would slow down your purchase since there usually is a longer wait for a keyed flute. If you have a hard time covering the F# tone hole on a Doyle, you may have answered the question of which flute yourself...
Eric
Individual blowing styles (flat vs. sharp) is the biggest issue, so slideless isn't for everyone (even though it once was for everyone, and I suspect people learned to blow sharper or flatter as needed).
Flauta dolce - I love keys. If you think you might want them, I'm pretty sure both makers block mount keys so you'd need to decide in advance...also it would slow down your purchase since there usually is a longer wait for a keyed flute. If you have a hard time covering the F# tone hole on a Doyle, you may have answered the question of which flute yourself...
Eric