Religion and Politics

[Blackwood]

We've been discussing intelligent design on another thread. I'm adding this one to broaden the discussion into the larger issue of increased religious influence on politics. Seperation of church and state is a key principle on which our country was founded on, yet I believe that there are many who would want that to change and I see that as a grave danger.

I use the following excerpt from a CNN interview with Jerry Falwell to illustrate the point that this is a proactive, thought out agenda:

BLITZER: We did a Gallup poll -- there was a Gallup poll that came out earlier this year, Reverend Falwell, you may have seen it, which asked the American public if they described themselves as a born-again Christian or evangelical. Forty-two percent said yes; 54 percent said no.

I don't know if those numbers coincide with what you thought, but I was pretty surprised that 42 percent of the American public, at least according to that Gallup poll, thought of themselves as born- again Christians or evangelical.

FALWELL: Wolf, that is about accurate, and that number is growing rapidly.

You know, Billy Graham got the fires burning back 65 years ago and has continued up to this day. Add to that hundreds of Christian television, radio stations.

In the publishing industry, for example, Rick Warren's book, "Purpose-Driven Life," 20 million copies gone. And now, 800,000 a month, number one, New York Times best-seller list. Tim LaHaye's "Left Behind" series, 55 million hard-back copies.

The Christian contemporary music, the youth music, Christian music, multi-millions. And 225,000 evangelical churches, the largest churches of America.

There's a spiritual explosion. And we're getting -- we're winning our people to Christ. We're baptizing them. We're discipling them. We're then registering them to vote and getting them to the polls.
And in a matter of time, there will be 100 million active evangelical voters who will, every year, every election year, decide the pro-life, pro-family candidate's elected. JACKSON: Wolf...

BLITZER: Reverend Jackson, I want you to respond to that. But, listen, look at these numbers, and I'm going to put them up on the screen.

These were put together by the Chicago Tribune. Evangelical voters potentially in several of the battleground states: 30 percent in Iowa, 27 percent in Ohio, 25 percent in Minnesota, 24 percent in Michigan, 23 percent in Florida, 22 percent in Pennsylvania.

I guess the Reverend Falwell makes a point that if President Bush and Karl Rove can energize these potential evangelical voters out there, John Kerry's in deep trouble

and on a side note this exchange is classic:

JACKSON: So, Jerry, you should not abandon your friend, Pat Robertson, for the president.

I submit to you today that our going to Iraq was a misadventure. It has put America in isolation. We are losing lives, money and losing our character in that war.

We deserve better leadership. And we need...

FALWELL: I'd rather be killing them over there than fighting them over here, Jesse. And I think you would...

JACKSON: Let's stop the killing and choose peace. Let's choose negotiation over confrontation.

FALWELL: Well, I'm for that too. But you've got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops. And I'm for the president to chase them all over the world. If it takes 10 years, blow them all away in the name of the Lord.

JACKSON: That does not sound Biblical to me. And that sounds ridiculous.

FALWELL: Well, when they kill my family and blow those towers down -- and right now, who knows between now and November 2? We know what they did in Spain, in Australia. I look for it here.

I'd rather be shooting them over there than shooting them over here.

JACKSON: But those killers came from Afghanistan and bin Laden, who have not been pursued. They did not come from Iraq.

FALWELL: I don't care where they came from. We...
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0410/24/le.01.html

[Tyler]

All I'll say on this matter is...
lookey what happens when your leader injects religion into his politics...

[Teri-K]

I had viewed my concern on just this issue in another thread, but an aside: We were discussing this at dinner a few days ago and how troubling it is for the country. I voiced my usual anger, but my husband said, "Let them take over. I hope they do!". Of course I was shocked and asked him if he'd lost his mind. "No", he said, "if it happens we can apply for asylum in Europe!".

[fiddleronvermouth]

Blackwell, that's absolutely terrifying if the statistics are true. (Thank God evangelists freely make stuff up.)

If it's true, though, please, please, please, please keep it south of the border.

[Tyler]

Blackwell, that's absolutely terrifying if the statistics are true. (Thank God evangelists freely make stuff up.)

If it's true, though, please, please, please, please keep it south of the border.

Naw, they won't go to Canada...much to "liberal" for them there

[Teri-K]

The current issue of Newsweek discusses spirituality/religion in the U.S.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9014628/site/newsweek/

The numbers are a bit different for Evangelical, but we all know the problem with polls.

[Wombat]

Which event in Australia could Falwell have been referring to? Or does he think that London and Bali are in Australia? :roll:

It would be scarey if someone this dumb, who has such utter disregard for the facts of the matter, had a following of hundreds. (I am, of course, assuming the report is accurate.)

[Jack]

My faith is my politics. I cannot separate them. My faith tells me war is wrong, so that's how I see things politically. It tells me that the death penalty and abortion are simply different forms of war, so that's how I see it too.

Even when I used to be more secular-minded, it was still the case but I would deny it. Politics and faith are deeply intertwined in the hearts of people and always have been, even for people who claim no religion at all (Madalyn Murray O'Hair was a very active [and accomplished] political figure herself).

I think that the US' legal/constitutional concept and actual practice of the separation of church and state is rather complicated. I agree with points on more than one side.

[fiddleronvermouth]

Blackwell, that's absolutely terrifying if the statistics are true. (Thank God evangelists freely make stuff up.)

If it's true, though, please, please, please, please keep it south of the border.

Naw, they won't go to Canada...much to "liberal" for them there

Precisely why I'm quivering in my booties - if they gain too much more control of your government and military they'll start bombing the crap out of our pot farms and gay marriage chapels to save us from ourselves.

[Wormdiet]

Fundamentalism gives me the willies. What's ironic is that Falwell, Bush, and co. are much more like Bin Laden and/or the Iranian fundies than they will admit. "Let *my* vision of the world control your life" instead of leaving well enough alone.

[anniemcu]

Which event in Australia could Falwell have been referring to? Or does he think that London and Bali are in Australia? :roll:

It would be scarey if someone this dumb, who has such utter disregard for the facts of the matter, had a following of hundreds. (I am, of course, assuming the report is accurate.)

Umm... we're not talking a following of 'hundreds'... were' talking thousands... even tens of thousands, but still a minority. Makes the eyes bug, eh?

The major problem with that is that the majority who think otherwise are loathe to believe that that movement is snowballing to the extent it is, and we fail to take it seriously enough to get off our duffs and melt them at the polls...

[anniemcu]

Fundamentalism gives me the willies. What's ironic is that Falwell, Bush, and co. are much more like Bin Laden and/or the Iranian fundies than they will admit. "Let *my* vision of the world control your life" instead of leaving well enough alone.

Isn't that "the God's honest truth!"?

[OnTheMoor]

I'm interested in this discussion and I think Cranberry touched on why.

There is a difference between seperation of church and state and Christians voting according to their beliefs. Can you not be against abortion and still support the seperation of church and state? No question that Falwell and Robertson and the rest are nut balls, but I wonder whether the fact that half of Americans are born-again Christians should be worrisome in itself.

[anniemcu]

My faith is my politics. I cannot separate them. My faith tells me war is wrong, so that's how I see things politically. It tells me that the death penalty and abortion are simply different forms of war, so that's how I see it too.

Even when I used to be more secular-minded, it was still the case but I would deny it. Politics and faith are deeply intertwined in the hearts of people and always have been, even for people who claim no religion at all (Madalyn Murray O'Hair was a very active [and accomplished] political figure herself).

I think that the US' legal/constitutional concept and actual practice of the separation of church and state is rather complicated. I agree with points on more than one side.

One's own life can be lived according to one's own convictions, and community requires at least a modicum of agreement on points that pertain to community life, but the broader and larger the community, the more problematical one person's convictions can become when contrasted with others. It is not possible to represent everyone with one set of ideas, though there are many that we can agree on, there are different levels of tolerance and issues that seem very black and white in small number grey considerabley as we see more and more cases with different circumstances. So, we can each live our religious live according to our own tennets, but as a larger community, we have to serperate religion from the political.

I know that came out too complicated - to simplify (?) - my religious beliefs guide my every waking moment, including my political self. That is not a problem, however, if I allow my political self to interfere with my own, or anyone else's religious freedom, I am sunk.

[rodfish]

There are many Christians in the U.S. today who also believe in the separation of church and state; who don't agree with Falwell, Robertson, or Jackson or any of the other politically active "religious" leaders. We don't believe that we can, or should try to make this country "christian" through politics, or through laws.

Many of us cringe every time Falwell or Robertson are in the news, because we know that we will be lumped in with them and what they say.

It won't be long until every Christian is looked upon as a problem. :roll:

Maybe we already are. Christ was.