dealing with differences

[fiddleronvermouth]

I'm free to believe, not on the basis of a handshake, but on the basis of the type of person he is (from others I do know well who have worked with him on many occasions) that there's no way he would be a party to something "fake" like that.

I mean, common, you can take this kind of speculation out for infinity. How do you know the atomic bomb WAS dropped. You've seen pictures of the aftermath, but you weren't there at ground zero, time zero, so how do you know what caused the destruction?
I've only personnally experienced a tornado and very small earthquake - I have never experienced a tsunami, so how do I know that all that destruction last December really happened from one?
How do we even know the moon is "there"? We see a white disk in the sky at night, but how do we know it's not some strange effect of light rays bending or something? How do we know that the tides are caused by the moon?
This type of "proof" thing can go on forever. And this gets back to the religious thread - sometimes you DO need to go on faith and not have scientific proof about the existance of things.

I require personal experience for my belief to be absolute. It's really simple. I NEVER need to go on faith. I either see it, or I don't. The only faith I need is that what I see and experience is an adequate representation of reality.

[Denny]

I require personal experience for my belief to be absolute. It's really simple. I NEVER need to go on faith. I either see it, or I don't. The only faith I need is that what I see and experience is an adequate representation of reality.

Your vision must be better than mine. I have seen many things that I don't believe...

[missy]

so fiddleron (and honestly, I'm not making light of you, I'm trying to understand) -

Do you "believe" there is such a thing as the protons and neutrons in atoms? I mean, even with electron microscopy, we aren't really "seeing" these, we are seeing the representation of what they do to an electron field.
The entire last part of the Periodic Table has never been "seen" - the elements are theoretically possible, but for most, their half life is so incredibly short that finding them is impossible.
Long before anyone "saw" Pluto, we knew it was there based on the fluctations in the orbit of Neptune.

There's many, many things in science like this. And that's still "faith" - believing things may be possible based on other findings, but not actually seeing them with our eyes.

[djm]

That's why Science is so great. It always leaves itself a backdoor in case it got it wrong. Depending on personal experience is just as prone to attributing the wrong reasons for why things happen, but we are much less likely to forgive ourselves or each other.

djm

[fiddleronvermouth]

so fiddleron (and honestly, I'm not making light of you, I'm trying to understand) -

Do you "believe" there is such a thing as the protons and neutrons in atoms? I mean, even with electron microscopy, we aren't really "seeing" these, we are seeing the representation of what they do to an electron field.
The entire last part of the Periodic Table has never been "seen" - the elements are theoretically possible, but for most, their half life is so incredibly short that finding them is impossible.
Long before anyone "saw" Pluto, we knew it was there based on the fluctations in the orbit of Neptune.

There's many, many things in science like this. And that's still "faith" - believing things may be possible based on other findings, but not actually seeing them with our eyes.

You can make light of me if you wish. I do it all the time, myself.

There's a limit to how many times I can repeat the same basic concept without getting totally bored with it, but I'll try one more time.

To believe something absolutely, I need to see it or experience it myself.

I don't know how anybody could possibly find fault with that attitude.

Maybe if I explain that, lacking absolute certainty, there are still many layers of probability and improbability a person can work with before they get anywhere nead absolute belief or disbelief. So, suppose I'm a scientist observing fluctuations in Neptune's orbit - There are many possibilities. Maybe there's another planet up there, maybe Jesus is playing kickball with it, maybe it's an illusion caused by refractions in clouds of space dust, maybe Neptune itself is a god and the fluctuations are due to something he ate.

So, based on my experience in the world, which probably includes lots of observation of other, more visible planets, I'd probably decide a planet is the *most probable* explanation, but that doesn't *completely* exclude the possibility of space-dust refraction or divine kickball-playing until I SEE pluto.

As far as I know, that's the approach most scientists (who aren't being paid to find something specific) take to reach their conclusions, and they rarely speak in terms of absolute belief, but in terms of probability, and "generally accepted theories".

Anyway, I'm completely bored with justifying my world view to you, missy, so if you still don't get it and you're still interested, you could brush up on some philosophy. Doesn't really matter much where you start - all philosophers mostly sit around and pontificate about what's real and what isn't, and what's right or wrong.

If you'd like support for your own world view that faith is inescapable and necessary, you might like Descartes, who not only believed that we exist and that what we experience is real, but also believed he had proven the existence of God.

[fiddleronvermouth]

Sorry, I'm coming off a bit harsh. I'm in a bad mood and I hate my job. I'm not exactly "bored" just a bit frustrated I can't figure out how to express that concept so it isn't difficult to understand.

[missy]

that's ok - and really - I'm a very analytical person when you get right down to it (hell, I'm an analytical chemist for goodness sake!).

And I know there are very few "facts" in science, but our best guess based on what we know.
Perhaps it's just that I approach things from a different standpoint. In some cases, I can at least give "credit" to a theory without having absolute proof - if experimentation and data collection is done with quality. In other cases, I, too question results because of skeptisism as to whether the researcher was only out to "prove" their theory and didn't look at other alternatives (and neglected to detail those findings that went against their theory).

But I also still have a little of the "wonder" left in me that wants to believe we DON'T know everything there is, so we don't have all the answers. Even though we pretty much know how a sperm and egg combine to form a human. We don't exactly know how the stem cells differentiate, but they do. We know some of the things that can go wrong, but we still don't know why.
But when you hold that minute old infant in your arms - it's still a miracle, whether you understand it all or not. And when you say goodbye to him at age 18, as he takes his first big step out into the world, it's a miracle how fast those years go by.

I'm sorry if I've bored you or seemed to not understand. I guess I just have a different view of things - and was trying to understand yours.

[SteveShaw]

Standing in front of somebody with a Bible in hand screaming, "YOU ARE GOING TO HELL YOU DIRTY SINNER" doesn't usually work.

If you shouted that at me and followed it with ..."AND THATCHER AND REAGAN ARE ALREADY THERE!" it definitely wouldn't work for me!

Steve

[fiddleronvermouth]

that's ok - and really - I'm a very analytical person when you get right down to it (hell, I'm an analytical chemist for goodness sake!).

And I know there are very few "facts" in science, but our best guess based on what we know.
Perhaps it's just that I approach things from a different standpoint. In some cases, I can at least give "credit" to a theory without having absolute proof - if experimentation and data collection is done with quality. In other cases, I, too question results because of skeptisism as to whether the researcher was only out to "prove" their theory and didn't look at other alternatives (and neglected to detail those findings that went against their theory).

But I also still have a little of the "wonder" left in me that wants to believe we DON'T know everything there is, so we don't have all the answers. Even though we pretty much know how a sperm and egg combine to form a human. We don't exactly know how the stem cells differentiate, but they do. We know some of the things that can go wrong, but we still don't know why.
But when you hold that minute old infant in your arms - it's still a miracle, whether you understand it all or not. And when you say goodbye to him at age 18, as he takes his first big step out into the world, it's a miracle how fast those years go by.

I'm sorry if I've bored you or seemed to not understand. I guess I just have a different view of things - and was trying to understand yours.

Actually, not believing or disbelieving things leaves me an enormous amount of freedom to see and appreciate daily miracles, including all kinds of "impossible" things untouched by science.

[I.D.10-t]

Standing in front of somebody with a Bible in hand screaming, "YOU ARE GOING TO HELL YOU DIRTY SINNER" doesn't usually work.

It just needs to work some of the time.

http://www.brojed.org/

[peeplj]

Standing in front of somebody with a Bible in hand screaming, "YOU ARE GOING TO HELL YOU DIRTY SINNER" doesn't usually work.

It just needs to work some of the time.

http://www.brojed.org/

LOL! Now THAT's just about the most offensive thing I've seen on the Internet in years!!!

--James

[rodfish]

[quote="fiddleronvermouth"

I believe dinosaurs existed. I am wearing a 100 million year old fossilized carnivorous dinosaur tooth around my neck at this very moment. I found it in central Alberta in a canyon packed to the hilt with dinosaur bones. If you'd like to call it a wild leap of faith to believe the bones I saw were real bones of real dead animals bearing the shape and size the bones make when you put them together, go ahead.

As for whether man walked on the moon, jury is out. Too easy to fake.

[/quote]

I just have to ask; How do you know that tooth is 100 million years old?

[fiddleronvermouth]

I believe dinosaurs existed. I am wearing a 100 million year old fossilized carnivorous dinosaur tooth around my neck at this very moment. I found it in central Alberta in a canyon packed to the hilt with dinosaur bones. If you'd like to call it a wild leap of faith to believe the bones I saw were real bones of real dead animals bearing the shape and size the bones make when you put them together, go ahead.

As for whether man walked on the moon, jury is out. Too easy to fake.

I just have to ask; How do you know that tooth is 100 million years old?

Let's call it a very high degree of probability that if I were to study paleontology myself I would find the process used to date fossil discoveries satisfactory, and that if I were to have this tooth tested I would find that it's about 100 million years old. My point is that I believe it is the tooth of a dinosaur because I found it in a canyon full of dinosaur remains. I believe it is unfathomably old because the remains have been transformed to stone, which takes a really long time.

I can accept that someone who has never stood in a canyon full of fossilized dinosaur bones personally might doubt that such a thing exists, but having stood in one I no longer have any need (or ability) to doubt that it was there.

[perrins57]

In spite of the fact that I no longer believe in much of anything and don't practice any religion, I have kept a little card to remind me not to judge others (of course, I do anyway). It says simply:

"May I be more tolerant of those who choose to sin differently than I do."

Susan

I like this quote, I am a strong believer in Christianity and I think its us Christians who need this quote more than most! We often confuse 'forgiven for our sins' with 'no longer sins'!