Dinosaurs on Noah's Ark

[rodfish]

Rodfish. No deep anger here just amazement at what people are willing to believe without any rational structure to support it.

Thanks for the reply, some good points, let me highlight and comment on some of them:

Why did God create man? First of all, for His own glory. Since we're commanded to glorify Him in Scripture, it follows that that is one of the reasons for which we were created

I get that answer a lot and to me it is totally incomprehensible. Beings wishing to be glorified tend to be egotistical, self-indulgent maniac despots. Why would a God create a species to be glorified? What kind of being would create a lesser species to have it marvel at oneself? Not very impressive behavior or motivation in my book. Does that really not bother you or makes you at least wonder why?

Well Blackwood, you're probably not a very good judge of all "Beings wishing to be glorified" since all you've ever met are "egotistical, self indulgent human beings." Please don't throw God into that mixture. You're judging someone you can't possibly understand, from a viewpoint that is extremely limited.

Quote:
It's also probable that He created us for fellowship

Are you implying God has a need? He is lonely? I think that’s a contradiction in terms?
You should try at least to include the rest of my statement in your quote. Wouldn't that be the honest thing to do, Blackwood? I stated: It's also probable that He created us for fellowship. (I'n not implying here that He needs fellowship.)
Are you just looking for things to argue about? Or are you not actually completely reading replies to your posts? I certainly didn't say that HE was lonely.

Quote:
2. Why did God create man with a lack of wisdom? Possibly because it's one of the gifts God likes to give individually. (not as a "blanket" blessing upon all of mankind.) James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." NIV


Sorry but “possibly” is a bit shy of certitude.

Once again, it's obvious you're just looking to be argumentative. You state in one instance that it would be "more honest" to simply say we don't know, and yet in my responses you require certitude? I'm just giving you my personal answers to your (what I thought were sincere) questions gleaned from my study of the Bible. I sincerely believe that Scripture does answer your questions. But I said at the outset, you probably wouldn't agree with them anyway.

Quote:
4. Why does he set rules bearing horrific punishment when he knows man is "sinful" and is bound to break them?
Any parent can give you a good answer to this one. We set rules to protect our children and hopefully to help them grow into responsible adults.


Correct, but we don’t kill or torture our children. And as parents we also know that continued interaction, communication and reinforcement of the message is critical to parental success. That’s how our species works. Appearing and speaking to a few select representatives and then disappearing for 2,000 years is not an effective way of communicating as evidenced by the utter confusion of religious interpretation in the world today.

God doesn't kill or torture His children either. There is a misunderstanding amongs many people today who believe that simply because we are His creation, we are all His children. (I'm sure to get a lot of flak on this one.)
In speaking of Christ, John the apostle wrote: John 1:12
"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- "NIV
Those who are God's children have a close intimate relationship with Him, and He is not silent. He does communicate, through His word and through His Spirit. His way of communicating is very effective. The confusion you see in religious interpretation today is probably caused by the fact that there are many "wolves in sheeps clothing" masquerading as christians. (Acts 20:29-30)

Quote:
There is no real idea of how God wants us to live.

Another example of why God is not a very communicator

Once again you conveniently misquote my comment. Why is that Blackwood? Here is what I wrote:
"Where there is no law, there is no understanding of what sin is. There is no real idea of how God wants us to live."
Quite the opposite of what you tried to imply.

Quote:
I would argue that God did Not create man to be sinful. He created man with the freedom to be sinful, and there is a difference. Man had the free will to choose and he chose to sin, knowing the punishment that was to come.

Not sure this is logically correct. Man was created the way he was. God either did or did not know that man would sin. Again if he knew he would why get angry? If he didn’t know he isn’t God.

I didn't say that God did not know that man would sin. Of course He did. But He still gave man the freedom to choose. That's why you have the freedom to choose now. You are correct, in that you did not have the freedom to choose not to sin, like Adam and Eve had; sadly, you and I and the rest of the world inherited a sin nature; meaning that sin comes naturally to us. However, we do have the freedom to choose what to do about our sinful condition. We can stay in it, or accept the gift of freedom God offers.

And finally: To "crystallize the message'?

"We don’t know why he created us to be inferior"
This wasn't one of your original questions, but Paul answered it quite well when he wrote: Rom 9:19-21 "One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? NIV


"We don’t know why he has a need."
(see my response above.)

We don’t know how he wants us to live (your quote)
Again a misquote. The Bible reveals quite completely how He wants us to live. Many people however, don't want to be accountable to God, so they invent "excuses" for not believing or accepting His communication to us through His Word.


"We don’t know why he is not very good in communicating his message"
His message has been communicated clearly and completely for those who will listen. One of the problems with any communication is that the hearer must "listen." We have ears, but we do not hear. Because we choose not to hear. We have our own agenda, so we misunderstand on purpose, misquote on purpose, and avoid the central issues, all the while crying out, "you're not communicating very good." So who's at fault?

"And we don’t know what he actually offers besides glorifying him. "
No, we don't know "everything" He offers, but we do know that He offers, forgiveness, abundant life, and life eternal. Much more than we deserve.

"I submit to you that believing in a deity without the ability to clearly articulate answers to these questions (and there are others of course) is (to me) a blind faith based on wishful thinking, in other words believing without a critical assessment of the facts."

The only wishful thinking going on here, is the one who is "wishful" that God does not exist. Answers to your questions were clearly articulated from Scripture. A serious study of the Bible and it's fulfilled prophecies are alone enough to "prove" to the serious student, God's existence. Let alone the testimony of the universe and the millions of people down through the ages who have enjoyed communion with Him.

Have a nice day.

Rod

[Lorenzo]

We've covered this topic before. Bottom line: by creating us, God proved he's a gambler.

Previous discussion - http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... ler#293635

[Blackwood]

Rodfish,

It is maybe a unfortunate limitation of the web, but you clearly misread my intentions in my post. I was trying to be honest and straightforward in raising points, but what i get from you are accusations of trying to be argumentative, and illintentioned. While I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say in one instance it would be helpful not to jump to conclusions on my motivations. I haven't questioned your motives, but rather just asked some specifc questions.

On the substance I'll address the following:

Well Blackwood, you're probably not a very good judge of all "Beings wishing to be glorified" since all you've ever met are "egotistical, self indulgent human beings." Please don't throw God into that mixture. You're judging someone you can't possibly understand, from a viewpoint that is extremely limited.

you use the term "all" twice. Why? did I say "all" anywhere? Throwing God into the mixture is the point, as he wishes to be glorified. You did not answer the question but rather deny the approriateness of the question, that's a cop-out.
I'm judging someone I can't understand? Classic way of illustrating my point. If I'm too dumb to understand God it is because I was made that way. And that means you can't understand God either and therefore all your Bible study means nothing. Or are you implying that your brainis bigger and you have a much greater insight into God?

Why did he create us for fellowship? Please answer, you didn't answer.
I fail to see any logic in your position that God gives wisdom individually. Why does he do that?

His way of communicating is very effective. The confusion you see in religious interpretation today is probably caused by the fact that there are many "wolves in sheeps clothing" masquerading as christians

who then is the true oracle of truth according to you? Please be specific. The Pope? Also, if the definition of children is changed as you suggested and not all human beings are his children then it's ok for him to kill and torture the non-believers? Please be specific.

Once again you conveniently misquote my comment. Why is that Blackwood? Here is what I wrote:
"Where there is no law, there is no understanding of what sin is. There is no real idea of how God wants us to live."
Quite the opposite of what you tried to imply.

I misunderstood what you meant, my apologies.

This wasn't one of your original questions, but Paul answered it quite well when he wrote: Rom 9:19-21 "One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? NIV

Sorry, that's a non answer, unless i should take it to mean God created us he can do whatever he pleases, well i can breed gerbils but that doesn't mean ethically i can throw them into the microwave..

His message has been communicated clearly and completely for those who will listen

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to believe that the Bible is the true word of God. Is the Koran or the Book of Mormon wrong? If so why? Please support your answer.

So who's at fault?

God, he made us flawed?

No, we don't know "everything" He offers, but we do know that He offers, forgiveness, abundant life, and life eternal. Much more than we deserve.

For those who believe. What does he offer to those who don't believe.
Why do you feel that forgiveness, abundant life and life eternal is more than we deserve? What do we deserve?

The only wishful thinking going on here, is the one who is "wishful" that God does not exist

Why would anyone be "wishful" God does not exist? Why do you imply that I would be "wishful" God does not exist?

A serious study of the Bible and it's fulfilled prophecies are alone enough to "prove" to the serious student, God's existence

Name 1 distinct prophecy in the Bible that was fulfilled. And let me clarify this: If there was something in the Old Testament and the writers of the New testament then wrote about it has having been fulfilled doesn't count in my book. Show prophecy that was fulfilled after the publication of the texts.

Speaking of prophecy did Jesus not say that this generation shall not pass before his return....well we're still waiting.

If I seem aggressive I'm not trying to be to you personally, or not argumentative, I'm trying to understand your thinking.

Thank you.

[rodfish]

[quote="Blackwood"]Rodfish,

It is maybe a unfortunate limitation of the web, but you clearly misread my intentions in my post. I was trying to be honest and straightforward in raising points, but what i get from you are accusations of trying to be argumentative, and illintentioned. While I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say in one instance it would be helpful not to jump to conclusions on my motivations. I haven't questioned your motives, but rather just asked some specifc questions.

Blackwood, I do apologize if I misread your intentions and or motivations. I felt that I answered your questions adequately, from Scripture, but got the impression from your responses that you aren't really interested in the answers themselves, but in trying your best to make them appear "illogocal." If you are truly sincere then the fault is mine.

It seems apparent however to me, that we're not going to have a meeting of the minds here. You obviously have a low regard for the Bible while mine is boundless. So there is really no use in our butting heads.

However, having said that, I will mention maybe just one or two prophecies from the OT that have been fulfilled. Although they may or may not meet your criteria. (I'm not totally sure just what that is.)

Ps 22:1-18
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing. NIV

As you can see this is from the Psalms and was written about 700 years before Christ by King David, who never experienced having his hands and feet pierced or lots cast for his garments. (Crucifixion wasn't known at that time.) But it certainly describes the death Christ experienced.

Here's another for you. Daniel the prophet was a young Jewish man of noble birth, taken captive from Israel to Babylon in approximately 586 BC.
He wrote the book of Daniel while living in captivity. It's composed about half and half of his experiences while there, and some visions he had during that time. In Daniel chapter 8, he describes a vision of a Ram and a Goat. I can't put the whole thing in here, but you obviously have a Bible so you can read the account yourself. In verses 3-5 he describes a ram which could not be conquered by any other beasts, until the goat came from the west.
Dan 8:5-8

5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 He came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at him in great rage. 7 I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him; the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven. NIV

Thankfully we're not left to guess about what these animals represent because in the same chapter in verse 20, it's explained. (by an angel, by the way)
Dan 8:20-22
20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. NIV

As we know from historical records, Media-Persia defeated Babylon in 539 BC; the Ram with the two horns. Then in 331 BC Alexander the Great led his armies from the west and conquered the Medes and Persians, (the goat with the one big horn which was replaced by four lesser horns) but didn't live to enjoy his victory. He died at a very young age, leaving no heir, so the kingdom was split between four of his generals; Ptolemy was given Egypt and parts of Asia Minor. Cassander was given the territory of Macedonia and Greece. Lysimachus was given Thrace and parts of Asia Minor (western Bithynia, Phrygia, Mycia, and Lydia). Seleucus was given the remainder of Alexander’s empire which included Syria, Israel, and Mesopotamia.

In other words, over 200 years before the event, Daniel prophecied that Media-Persia would be defeated by Greece under the command of a king who would not live to enjoy his victory, but would die and be replaced by four others who would split up the kingdom.

Pretty amazing to me. Although I suppose it could just be coincidence.

[Doug_Tipple]

Friends, all of this Bible talk is depressing me. Like many other religious scriptures in the world, the Bible is merely an old book of writings from the past. It isn't unique. I am more inclined to think about how we can make this world a good place in live for every man, woman, child on the planet. Plants and animals need to be included here too. OK, I am a humanistic because I don't want to dwell on minutias in historic documents, the content of which is highly suspect.

In my opinion religion hasn't been doing a very good job of informing its congregants about matters that are most important to our well-being and survival on this planet. Things could get really unpleasant if we don't collectively wake up soon.

[Walden]

Friends, all of this Bible talk is depressing me. Like many other religious scriptures in the world, the Bible is merely an old book of writings from the past. It isn't unique. I am more inclined to think about how we can make this world a good place in live for every man, woman, child on the planet. Plants and animals need to be included here too. OK, I am a humanistic because I don't want to dwell on minutias in historic documents, the content of which is highly suspect.

Actually, I think the story of Noah has a lot of relevance.

• Among other things,
• In even what seem like impossible situations there are those who survive.
• It pays to listen to people... sometimes even the wacky old guy who says Deluge is on its way.
• Even great patriarchs can suffer depression and fall to alcoholism. No one is immune from the very real dangers of chemical addiction.
• Family members should respect and support one another in times of weakness, rather than watching naked drunk family members and casting curses on one another.

[Blackwood]

Rodfish,

I certainly recognize that I will not change your mind and I am not trying to. I do however, want people no matter what they believe, to at least challenge themselves to think critically. I acknowledge freely that I don't know why we are here, or if there is even a why. I do know that most religions in man's past were based on superstitious belief, we don't pray to the Sun or have human sacrifices, or burn witches at the stake (i hope we can all agree on that). Point being is that humans have a proven history of believing in false gods. And when they do they always believe that they are truly right even when they are not, they just don't see it, for one because they do not want to. Is it neurological? Is it in the DNA?

DNA is by the way a really interesting subject. Have you read up on dominant and recessive genes and what cruel havoc it imposes on many peoples' lives? If you haven't please do, and ask yourself why a all powerful and good being would people through that by design?

Let me make 2 general points in this.
1. You are right i can't accept your examples of prophecy for several reasons: a) If a reader of the Old Testament sees a prophecy and then writes about his Savior having fulfilled the prophecy it's not proof, it's just wide open to fraud. we can't verify it we can't judge it, it's way in the past which brings me to my point b) all these supposed prohecies are WAY WAY in the past, it's not relevant totoday or verifiable. It's kind of sad that the only applicable prohecies are dating to 2,000 -2,500 years ago. All the originals we have today are copies and translations. Yes there were some older texts of the Old Testament in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but anything relating to Jesus was written many years after his death by people who didn't know him. Politics started very early in church and it became a power struggle within the Church and the Roman empire. That's why texts were edited, some excluded, some included, people were killed over this process. Neither one of us have the ability to critically review the reality of the conditions and motivations under which these texts were written. We just don't.
I would be more impressed by a specific prophecy that occurred even in the last 100 years.
Again I ask what happened to Jesus's return in his generation?


And finally, not intended as a dig, you didn't answer any of the questions I posed. I supect I know why, but I could be mistaken and don't want to pre-suppose.

I know you take your faith seriously and you have studied the Bible more than I have. Fair play and good luck on your journey. I would just encourage you to think critically with an open mind.

All the best...

[Blackwood]

Walden,
I see you still haven't managed to apologize for your misguided effort to characterize me as being prejudiced...

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... &start=420

I noticed you posted nothing to refute the factual basis of my statements which you thought apparently were worthy of implying me to be prejudiced.

So is it that you attack without basis and then don't support your attack with any facts? Please clarify your approach.

[Innocent Bystander]

"All this Bible talk depresses me..."
Yeah, me too.
Why concentrate on the Biblical story of Noah?
The one in the Epic of Gilgamesh is more fun.
And Noah gets his REAL name, which is UTNAPISHTIM.
Pity the old fool got drunk though. Then the story gets racist, and nasty.

[Flyingcursor]

"All this Bible talk depresses me..."
Yeah, me too.
Why concentrate on the Biblical story of Noah?
The one in the Epic of Gilgamesh is more fun.
And Noah gets his REAL name, which is UTNAPISHTIM.
Pity the old fool got drunk though. Then the story gets racist, and nasty.

Akkadian mythology is always a blast. Do you know exactly how Enki watered the land that brought forth crops?

Noah was his real name, his friends called him Utnapishtim for short. That's why he let them drown.

[peeplj]

One of the things that's hardest to realize is that your beliefs, which are so precious and appear so obvious to you and to those who share them, aren't particularly special, precious, or even unique, in the eyes of those who do not.

That's not meant to be a slam.

It's meant to point out why John Believer gets frustrated when Freddy Atheist won't "see the truth." To John, Freddy is being stubborn, or wrong-headed, or angry--whereas, to Freddy, there is no truth there to see.

--James

[Tyler]

It's meant to point out why John Believer gets frustrated when Freddy Atheist won't "see the truth." To John, Freddy is being stubborn, or wrong-headed, or angry--whereas, to Freddy, there is no truth there to see.

--James

The really frustrating thing is that neither seem to be able to agree to disagree...Once people on both sides of the argument consider that they will never get some people to understand their point of view and agree that their opinions differ, they may find out that they have more in common than they realise.

[rodfish]

One of the things that's hardest to realize is that your beliefs, which are so precious and appear so obvious to you and to those who share them, aren't particularly special, precious, or even unique, in the eyes of those who do not.

That's not meant to be a slam.

It's meant to point out why John Believer gets frustrated when Freddy Atheist won't "see the truth." To John, Freddy is being stubborn, or wrong-headed, or angry--whereas, to Freddy, there is no truth there to see.

--James

I understand your analogy and would only humbly point out that it wasn't John Believer who was trying to change anybody's mind. (In this instance anyway.) It was Freddy Athiest who was determined to get everyone, "thinking critically" by asking his questions. John Believer just provided the answers as he saw them.

Be well,

[emmline]

And Noah gets his REAL name, which is UTNAPISHTIM.

Thank you Bystander and Flydood, for this refreshing break in the Clash of the Titans!
Personally, I think it's more likely that Utnapishtim was an accidental reversal of Noah's true name: Mithsipantu. It rolls off the tongue much more nicely. And lends itself to more nicknames. Mithsi, Pantu, Pan...it goes on and on.
It's important, however, that we not overlook that Utnapishtim can be
anagrammed to Impish Taunt!

[rodfish]

Rodfish,

I certainly recognize that I will not change your mind and I am not trying to. I do however, want people no matter what they believe, to at least challenge themselves to think critically. I acknowledge freely that I don't know why we are here, or if there is even a why. I do know that most religions in man's past were based on superstitious belief, we don't pray to the Sun or have human sacrifices, or burn witches at the stake (i hope we can all agree on that). Point being is that humans have a proven history of believing in false gods. And when they do they always believe that they are truly right even when they are not, they just don't see it, for one because they do not want to. Is it neurological? Is it in the DNA?

DNA is by the way a really interesting subject. Have you read up on dominant and recessive genes and what cruel havoc it imposes on many peoples' lives? If you haven't please do, and ask yourself why a all powerful and good being would people through that by design?

Let me make 2 general points in this.
1. You are right i can't accept your examples of prophecy for several reasons: a) If a reader of the Old Testament sees a prophecy and then writes about his Savior having fulfilled the prophecy it's not proof, it's just wide open to fraud. we can't verify it we can't judge it, it's way in the past which brings me to my point b) all these supposed prohecies are WAY WAY in the past, it's not relevant totoday or verifiable. It's kind of sad that the only applicable prohecies are dating to 2,000 -2,500 years ago. All the originals we have today are copies and translations. Yes there were some older texts of the Old Testament in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but anything relating to Jesus was written many years after his death by people who didn't know him. Politics started very early in church and it became a power struggle within the Church and the Roman empire. That's why texts were edited, some excluded, some included, people were killed over this process. Neither one of us have the ability to critically review the reality of the conditions and motivations under which these texts were written. We just don't.
I would be more impressed by a specific prophecy that occurred even in the last 100 years.
Again I ask what happened to Jesus's return in his generation?


And finally, not intended as a dig, you didn't answer any of the questions I posed. I supect I know why, but I could be mistaken and don't want to pre-suppose.

I know you take your faith seriously and you have studied the Bible more than I have. Fair play and good luck on your journey. I would just encourage you to think critically with an open mind.

All the best...

Just to make a point about Scripture interpretation. You asked what happened to Jesus' return in His generation and quoted part of a passage that I will supply below.
Matt 24:32-35
32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. NIV

The Lord had just delivered an incredible prophecy concerning His second coming, and ended it with the words you see above. If you read the whole passage, it becomes obvious that He's referring to the generation that sees the beginning signs of his return. Those who see the beginning signs will still be there when He comes. It will happen quickly, once it begins.
So Christ did not say that His second coming would occur during the generation of His day. Simple really. If you think critically.

Have a nice day.