Brass v Copper Staples

[ausdag]

Dear people,

I've seen it written in various fora that there is no
significant difference in tone between brass staples
and copper staples. After this morning's experience, I
beg to differ.

I have been using hand-rolled copper staples for my
reeds and have grown accustomed to the tone of my
reeds in my African Blackwood chanter.

Just the other day I used a length of 4mm i.d brass
tube to make a staple just to see how it'd go in my
chanter. I took a well-playing reed - not my regular
playing one though - which had the usual tone that I
have grown accustomed to and took the head off and
placed it on the brass staple, waited a couple of days
and this morning tried it in my chanter.

Apart from a slightly flat 2nd octave A and B the rest
was in surprisingly good tune with the drones and
nice, in-tune hard D and easy-to-reach-and-in-tune 3rd
octave D.

But the most noticable thing was just how bright and
reedy the reed sounded - the type of tone I do not
really like, with unconvincing toy-shop sounding back
D and harsh over tones.

Perhaps with a bit more playing in it will mellow out,
but I think I'll stick to copper for the time being.
Maybe copper tubing rather than hand-rolling would be
worth a try.

Cheers,

DavidG

[Brian Lee]

I would like to offer that it seems to me most likely the difference was switching from a rolled to a tubing staple. I can't see how such a small bit of metal could affect the tone that much. Was the eye exactly the same as on the rolled staple? The length of the taper? How about the insertion depth of the staple into the slips? All of these will affect the tone of the reed to some degree - to speak nothing of what unbinding a playing reed, and then re-binding it again may have altered.

I think it would be tough to jump to a conclusion based on one test, but the question is an interesting one and I would certainly be interested to hear what others who try the same experiment may find with their sticks...

[eric_smith]

After this morning's experience, I
beg to differ.

I once rolled staples with brass, copper, and nickel silver of the same gauge sheet and stuck them on the same head. If there was any discernable difference, I couldn't tell. However, copper was far more workable than the other two, nickel silver being still much worse than brass, if I remember right.

I should mention that the staples were not rolled on a tight-fitting shaped mandrel and the eye, taper, and such were "free formed" with pliers. So it doesn't qualify as a controlled experiment.

Brass tubing is typically (?) thinner than what you'd use to roll out of copper, and the tubing forms a much wider eye than a customary tapered blank. Also the workability issue may affect the taper formed. These are big alterations in a staple.

Eric

[ausdag]

I can't see how such a small bit of metal could affect the tone that much...

Then we could also conclude that staple wall-thickness would also not produce any noticable difference. I don't know. Some have said that the tone difference is a result of brass tubing being of smaller thickness than copper leading to the tonal difference. If that's right then such a small bit of metal can affect tone.

However...given that tiny differences in the scrape or internal topography of the cane can produce dramatic differences in tone, there is no reason why two metals of different density could also produce different tones.

Changing the insertion depth, size of the eye, taper and those mentioned has only always ever changed the tuning, not tone, for me anyway. Given that the tuning was basically the same as for the same head on the copper staple, I was drawn more to the conclusion that the tone difference was a result of the difference in metal used. Unbinding a head and rebinding - a common practice of mine - until now also has NEVER changed the tone to the degree that I experienced today. I will however, experiment some more and see what I come up with.

Cheers,

DavidG

[djm]

I would second Brian's suspicions. I would guess that the much smoother bore of manufactured tubing - any metal tubing - would give a clearer, more flute-like sound than a hand rolled staple of any sheet metal banged and rolled around a mandrel.

djm

[billh]

I would second Brian's suspicions. I would guess that the much smoother bore of manufactured tubing - any metal tubing - would give a clearer, more flute-like sound than a hand rolled staple of any sheet metal banged and rolled around a mandrel.

djm

It depends on how you use your mandrel. If a rolled staple is carefully made to confirm to a purpose-made mandrel, it can be just as smooth inside and out as a manufactured tube.

The BIG difference is in the staple shape. While I agree that the smoothness of a staple can be important, the exact taper and shape seem to be the most important variables.

Also consider that the staple thickness IS important - not because of any acoustic properties of thick walled tubing, but because of the resulting changes in the geometry of the reed head.

The acoustic properties of the various metals under consideration are for all intents and purposes identical. You are welcome to believe that platinum is better than gold is better then silver is better than brass, as a few bassoonists seem to think where bocals are concerned, but I'm content to save my money for other things

Bill

[ausdag]

Perhaps that's the reason. That's probably why so many chanters I hear these days sound so tinny because of the trend towards tubing rather than rolled.

Cheers,

DavidG

[maw]

Hmmm... that's where the jig 'Copper and Brass' came from

[maw]

Hmmm... that's where the jig 'Copper and Brass' came from

[Joseph E. Smith]

Perhaps that's the reason. That's probably why so many chanters I hear these days sound so tinny because of the trend towards tubing rather than rolled.

Cheers,

DavidG

My reeds don't sound tinny, and I do use brass tubing. But, there's more to making a staple out of those things than just squeezing one side flat.

[BZH29]

Never been abble to heard difference between a rolled stapple and brass tubing ... except it's easyer to use brass tubing ! For me and I just said " for me " , the "secret" of a good reed is certainly not in the fact to use brass tubing or rolled stapple .
I'm always asking me why some reedmakers use copper sheet and are loosing their time to roll a stapple...sure because they have time ...

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

The fellow who gave me my start on the pipes always used to go on about the difference between various metals for the staple; he'd tried copper, brass, sterling silver, aluminum, gold, platinum. He told me about the day he tried a brass staple in his Highland pipes after playing and making copper staple reeds for over 30 years, "It was like hearing a UFO," not a pleasant sound at all. He settled on platinum-iridium for the GHB, gold for the Irish pipes. A sheet of 14K gold for making 2 or 3 UP staples will set you back about $30, that was 8 years ago too.
I've always just rolled copper myself. Another very experienced reedmaker told me he'd tried the precious metals and noticed a difference too, but copper seemed to give a nice enough tone anyway, and was trad as well.

[ausdag]

My reeds don't sound tinny, and I do use brass tubing. But, there's more to making a staple out of those things than just squeezing one side flat.

Perhaps not, and I in no way wish to question your skills at reed making as I hear you've got what it takes

but have you ever played with hand-rolled copper staple reeds? Maybe after playing them as long as I have, suddenly brass-tubing reeds will start to sound tinny to you too. Don't forget, this was in an African Blackwood chanter - generally thought to be brighter in tone as well which I guess would exacerbate any tinny-ness that other woods wouldn't as much.

Cheers,

DavidG

[Joseph E. Smith]

My reeds don't sound tinny, and I do use brass tubing. But, there's more to making a staple out of those things than just squeezing one side flat.

... have you ever played with hand-rolled copper staple reeds? Maybe after playing them as long as I have, suddenly brass-tubing reeds will start to sound tinny to you too.

Yes, I have a Gallagher staple, and have used it in quite a few experimental reed projects. I did notice a slight variance in tone between the two, but it isn't anything drastically noticeable.

Again, there is more to making a good staple out of brass tubing than flattening one end of it. Shape of the eye, OD and ID is paramount to producing a good and warm tone.

[ausdag]

I got a similar tinny-ness using Brian Howard's brass tubing staples, and they are meant to have much engineering behind them in terms of internal pertubations, eye size and shape and all that, made with special mandrels and all that, and all that. Anyway, tone, like beauty, is in the eye (ear) of the beholder (belistener).

Cheers,

DavidG